Your pick - Andro Dominator vs. Juggernaut

In a one-on-one duel, who gets the win in your opinion, and why?

Jugg Alpha or Beta?

Generally, I'd side with the Andromedan. The durability that the PA panels (number, size, and ability to dump) gives them an edge.

As I recall, the Juggy tends to be fairly quick, which is good for it, because of the standard Andromedan tactic in one-on-one battles of rushing the guy, blasting down a shield, and running away to reload. The Juggy's speed helps him keep the pressure on. I'll note that a fixed map give the Juggy an advantage because of the Andro's tendancy of run-and-reload.

On the other side, the Dom is hard to resist. He can use a Displacement Device every turn, to relieve the pressure or to mess with the Juggy. He's only got four TR beams, but 13 PH-2s for it's big blast - that's 120 damage (average, range 3) on his battle runs.

The Juggernaught has 4x Ph-4s (pointing forward) and 6x Ph-1s. That's 99 damage in return, assuming the Dominator didn't DisDev the Juggy for an inconvenient weapons arc. That damage won't get through the 13 front panels of the Dominator except as leak.

I'll note that the Juggy (alpha) can do both ECM and ECCM at the same time, while the Dominator is going to switch between the two at need. So we can assume a neutral EW environment.

Basically the Dominator's superior "shielding", superior alpha strike, and dual DisDevs, gives it the advantage. I don't have the rules handy for the Juggernaught Beta, but I assume that would be more of a fair fight.

Beta...

Had the Shriek seeking weapons. IIRC, damage was around 12 to kill with a warhead of 36 and S32. It had at least two available.

Jugg TM is B. The rotary shield can take 100 point of damage every turn and takes two flag hits to destroy on internals. The armor repairs itself, I don't recall the rate off hand but probably similar to shields. As you point out, the Dom at R3 could dish out an average of 120 points of damage. That would take down the rotary shield but would not get through the armor. And it can only dish that amount every other turn when the TRH recharge while the rotary shield would be back up to full strength on the next turn (and can change facings every impulse).

The Jugg, depending on the facing, can dish out quite a bit of damage. A determining factor could be that it can do this every turn. I haven't done the math, but would wonder if the Dom could dump more than the Jugg could fill every turn.

One thing to consider is that the Dom could try to displace behind the Jugg for the engine shot. It would have to be directly on the rear hex row AND the damage would have to get past the 100 point shield that the Jugg is sure to snap to the rear as soon as displacement is scanned.

Be a good battle!

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

Care to try it out?

Indeed, it could be a good battle. Can the Jugg HET well? That might remove the problem of the Dominator DisDeving behind it, as the Andro would have disrupted fire control for the first 4 imps after the DisDev.

I'd be willing to play that one out with you on SFBOL, if you're interested.

IIRC...

I 'think' the Jugg can HET every turn but I'd have to look at their rules again. I'll take a look and report.

Sure, a Dom/Jug battle would be a blast (bun intended). I'll have to renew my subscription which is no big deal. I'll let you know when I do and we'll see about setting something up.

I'll review all the Jug rules and post anything I haven't already.

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

JUG-B

BPV = 512

Total phasers = 34
PH-IV = 6
PH-I = 12
PH-III = 16

Power = 54

TM = B

2x Shriek missiles: S32, 12 damage to destroy, 35 damage to target. Treated as a shuttle by ADD's. 3 points ECCM, 6 points ECM, 5 points anti-tractor, self guiding.

Armor: Cannot be reinforced. No energy to charge. Repair using DC rules.

Shield: Up to 10 points to charge. Stops 10:1 (up to 100 points). Can be recharged fresh each turn. Can face any facing 1-5 at the start of impulse.

Acclerates to triple current speed, max S31. MC is 1.5. Can HET each turn with no chance to break down. Normal cost to HET.

No cost for life support. Cannot be boarded.

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

DOM

BPV = 457

Total Ph-2's = 16

Total TRH's = 4

Total PA front = 13
Total PA rear = 8
Total Dis Dev = 4

Power = 61

TM = D

Batteries = 12

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

Max damage

Using the R3 example above along with everything that could alpha directly to the front and considering max rolls;

DOM = 132 (13xph-2 + 4xTRH) (every other turn due to TRH needed 2 turns to arm)

JUG-B = 188 (4xph-IV + 12xph-I + 12xph-III) (possible every turn)

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

Excellent

If you don't mind, I'll take the Andromedan for this. You can email me at the address in my forum profile, when you think you're ready.

I think the Jugg-Beta is slightly advantaged in this one, as it seems to have more firepower than the Alpha. I miscounted the DOMs DisDevs, which makes this thing hard to pin down: Simply go somewhere else whenever the Juggy is on it's own attack run.

The DOM is certainly going to have to wear down the Juggy, to get anything inside. The big question is who can wear down the other faster.

As to how much power the DOM can shed: it depends on how much pressure the Juggy can put on the Andro. Over the course of two EAs (assuming the DOM sucked up all 130 damage that the front panels can take, and measuring against the reload time of the TRs) it can deal with 64 power through normal end-of-turn methods (drop the front panels to standard levels, which sloshes 52 into the rear panels. Pull 13 and then 9 power into batteries. Radiate 21 power to space, twice.) Or it can simply do panel dumps after the Juggy has fired it's load of heavy phasers. The rest is a matter of how fast it can use up battery power (EW, Dam Con, dumping phaser energy, transporting mines, and so on).

So the following are suggestions that you are free to shoot down (my own pun intended.) The point of the excersize is the clash of dreadnaughts of the Galactic Invaders, and the below could be construed as muddying up the picture.

Since you have the Shrieks, it seems reasonable to allow the DOM a full load of mines. Do you have in mind allowing other Commander Options? It seems to me that 21 or 67 extra points (10% or 20%, minus the cost of the mines) would buy some interesting Small Satellite Units, such as Energy Modules or Decoy SSUs. I admit that I don't know what sorts of COs the Juggs could be expected to cart around, since they cannot be boarded and I believe they didn't use mines.

After all, it's not like we're bringing in the rest of the DOM's sat ships (I suddenly have visions of Hydran Rangers, sans Stingers.) I could ask if BPV parity could be granted, in the form of Mobile Weapons Pods. By your BPV numbers, two of such would suffice. These could easily be the counter-balance to the Shrieks and their analogue.

Anyways. I look forward to how this turns out.

Jugg-Beta

Matt wrote:

>>If you don't mind, I'll take the Andromedan for this.<<

That's fine. I'm confident that you're more familiar with the Andros than I am. I've not yet played any of their ships, though I'm looking forward to it sometime. I'll start with something smaller to get versed in them.

>>I think the Jugg-Beta is slightly advantaged in this one...<<

I was thinking the same thing and it struck me...how often do we think of the Andro Dom as being outgunned lol.

I'd like to play this weekend but realistically I don't think it will pan out. One of my nieces (with new baby) is making a surprise visit and only I know about it. So big surprise for the family. She comes in on Thursday till next Tuesday. However, I start my vacation on July 5th so I should have ample opportunity.

I've already got a BV advantage so take whatever you think you'd like to try to make up the difference.
Looking forward to it.

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

The Champions have Gathered!

Matt,

I'm in Florida, eastern standard time. Don't remember where you are? Tossing out next Thursday, July 6th at 8pm to see if that works for you. If not, that's fine. I'm own vacation and am pretty flexible. LMK.

:)

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

Great game!

Matt and I played this game last night on SFBOL. Had a great time. After 3 turns we called it a draw. He managed to put about 18 internals up my tailpipe, all engine hits of course. Knocked the rotary shield down a couple of times and did about 15 damage to the #5 armor. I managed to overload his rear panels, popping one of them and doing about 53 internals to him including a TRH.

Interesting match up. Here's my thoughts on the Jugg-B:

Pros

It's BIG!
It has a GREAT turn mode (B)
It packs one heck of a punch!
The rotary shield is one tough egg to crack since it takes 100 point to down. And it can be right back up again next turn
Great armor on the front
Can HET every turn with NO chance of break down
Simple ship to fly really

Cons

It's underpowered and overgunned. It has a total of 53 points of power but to fill the phaser caps it takes 34 points. This means it's slowed to a crawl after it's shot it's wad.

Against any Galactic this isn't all that much of a problem. Simply pick a decently moderate speed and just hammer the enemy with phaser-IV's. This way it isn't as much to refill and you can keep the pressure on while trashing shields every turn. But against the Andro it isn't as simple. The Dom can dump a lot of power out of it's panels so it's more like getting through them in one shot. But the Jugg doesn't have the speed to run it down unless you're playing on a fixed map. Then the Dom would have a bigger problem.

Juggy is in desperate need of an APR refit!

All in all it was a lot of fun and the onlookers seemed to enjoy the game as well. Good time :)

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

The other side of the Invader's Coin

David summed it up pretty well. After the smoke cleared on turn 3, The Dominator had taken the Juggernaught's alpha on the rear panels and took more damage than it really cared to (but not enough to keep it out of the fight). The Dominator had knocked down the shield on turn 1, scratched some armor, and managed to pass rear-to-rear and get in a couple of phaser hits on the engines.

The game should have been over at the end of turn one, when a successful displacement but botched placement put the Juggernaught at range 3 to the rear panels and he had a true-oblique facing. But he probably thought that since the DisDev put him in Disrupted Fire-Control, he couldn't take the shot against the unit that displaced him.

Additionally, the Juggernaught was not using EW at all during the game. This allowed me to put up a cloud of ECM for him to shoot through, and was able to save me 6 battery every turn that would have had to go into ECCM. This might have been because of the Juggernaught's power problems: putting 12 power into EW would have cost him 8 movement, which would have put his speed just above double-digits. Against my consistent speed-31, he might as well have been stopped.

Had the game continued after turn 3, the Dominator would have pulled to a safe distance and started repairs. The Juggernaught's DamCon rating of 8 would help it get back it's power, but the repair boxes of the Dominator meant that it's rejuvenation powers would have likely carried the day (though the repairs would have been pretty slow, using the repair boxes meant for the Sat Ships). As noted, the Juggernaught is pretty power-starved (particularly after having taken some engine damage), so the Dominator would definitely have been able to control the ranges.

In general, the Juggernaught does more damage, but the Dominator can take more. The Juggernaught has power issues, where the Dominator has damage issues (it can barely get through the shield, and only if it centerlines). So it becomes incumbent on the Dominator to use it's DisDev and it's speed to control what shield the Juggernaught is hit on. It becomes a long slog of "who can wear down the other fastest."

Dominator Pros:
Great power curve (when pulling from batteries)
Ability to spend 4 or 5 turns to repair the most important systems, and come back fresh. (And to do that with no practical limit.)
The ability to hit the opponent and immediately follow it with being at a safe distance.
The ability to slap the opponent around with odd jumps in position. (In this case, pull a HET from the Juggernaught and then jump again to hit them on the flank)

Dominator Cons:
Needing to pull out for 4 or 5 turns after a second battle pass has degraded the panels to dangerous levels
Needing to drop the panels completely in order to flush them of power; opening up the possibility of Ph-4 sniping.
Only one HET
Would get mugged - repeatedly - on a fixed map.
Had to centerline the Juggernaught, and get a range 3 shot, and without a shift, in order to (on average) do damage past the shield.

I actually worked out the numbers on the damages, beforehand:
At range 3, the Dominator will do more than 100 damage if centerlined with no shift or with a +1 shift (121 and 105 average damage, respectively.) If at range 3 and merely in the FH arc, the Dominator does 88 damage with no shift. At range 5, the Dominator does 78 average damage if centerlined and with no shift.

The juggernaught can't penetrate the forward panels (when un-degraded) unless it gets closer than range 3. Centerlined at range 3, with no shift, the Juggernaught does 125 average damage (against the 130 pts the front panels can absorb.) When at the oblique (any oblique, as it has the same number of PH-4s pointing backwards, and with similar arcs), the juggernaught does 98 damage. At range 5 and centerlined, the Juggernaught does 103 damage.

Basically, the Juggernaught can't get any damage in (except for leak points) on the first exchange unless it closes to range 2 or less, or it gets a shot on the rear bank. While the Dominator can get a cool 25 damage on the armor every time. So it behooves the Dominator to get a range-3 centerlined shot with max ECCM, displace away, clear out any degredation and re-arm, then come back and do it again. The Juggernaught needs to use it's Ph-4s to punish panel dumping, and otherwise hope that the Dominator rolls alot of 6s on DisDev attempts. If on a fixed map, then simply chase the Dominator into corners, mug it, then chase it into another corner, rinse, repeat. The Juggy will probably win this on a fixed map and totally lose it on an open map.

Tholian BB vs Juggernaught

Let's discuss another "Invader" matchup: Tholians vs Juggernaught.

The Tholian BB (presumably with the Milky-Way refits: The PCs swapped out for Disruptors, and perhaps an SCom with fighters instead of the FCom) runs up to 416 BPV, which is much lower than the Juggernaught's 500 BPV. However, there are options to bring the BPV to parity: using the SCom, adding Mech Links, Commander's Option points.

The Neo-Thol has 6x forward Disruptors, 4 Web Casters (pointed in various directions), and can centerline 11x Ph-1s and a pair of Ph-3s. On paper, it looks liek the Juggernaught does indeed outgun the Tholian. However, the Web Casters give the Tholian a chance to drive the maneuver game in a similar fashion to the Dominator. Additionally, the FCom can separate, giving the Tholian a chance to attack from multiple directions (and get those all-important Engine hits.)

It would be a hard road for the Tholian to travel, but it is possible for them to succeed.

Galactic vs. extra-Galactic

I think any Galactic ship would have real issues with the Jugg. Two things saved the Dom; open map and the PA panels. Put the Dom on a closed map against the Jugg and even the PA panels won't be enough. It would offset the Jugg's low speed when arming after an alpha.

I'd have to reread the rules on the PA panels again, but I know they degrade with damage and that phasers are suppose to be the most efficient weapon against them. When I filled your rear panels, how much did they degrade? IIRC, I hit the front panels in T3 for 80+ damage. How much would they have degraded from that alpha? And how much of the 80+ could you probably have dumped?

The Dom can take 130 damage on the nose and take no internals. No Galactic ship can do that or even close. And although shields can be reinforced, a medium range the Jugg's ph-IV's are going to continually take chunks out of the shields until their shredded. If the Galactic runs in, well, good for the Jugg who can put out well over 100+ points of damage on a full alpha. Even a BB isn't going to shrug that off.

So IDK, I think any Galactic is going to have serious problems. Also, which BB's are going to be able to down the Jugg's 100 point shield consistently? I know some of them can inflict that sort of damage in a full on alpha at close range. But not consistently and not every turn.

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser