FTF FF tournament

My son and I are going to do a series of tournament games, first to win 10 wins the tournament. We'll be using frigates from regular SFB. I listed all the races we use in the Alpha Octant (24) and drew out of a hat for my first game. I'll detail the results here in this thread as we progress.

Game 1: Kzinti (my son) vs. Gorn (me).

Kzinti FF (C-10 and Y175 refit) 75 BPV

Gorn DD+ (plus refit) 74 BPV

The Gorn DD+ is basically an FF. It has 4 more points of power but is a 1/2 mover rather than 1/3 mover like the Kzinti. The Gorn has slightly stronger FH shields but weaker RH shields. It has 3 more shuttles than the Kzinti. The Kzinti has 1 more battery. The Gorn has a TM of C while the Kzinti is an A TM. Gorn has 1 G torp FP and the Kzinti has 1 distruptor in the FA arc. Gorn has 3xph-1 and the Kzinti 2xph-1 and 2xph-3 along with 4 drone racks (2xB and 2xC).

Should be a pretty good battle :)

My money is on your son

Just looking at it... as long as he can avoid your torp, he has a disp and 1 drone advantage each turn. That's assuming he's using his phasers against your torp.

Probably a safe bet :)

I wanted to do a tournament with him, he likes to use frigates. So this worked out well. Not that I mind tourney ships but let's face it, they're cookie-cutter ships. We wanted more of a challenge one way or the other. And this first line up will definitely be a challenge. One ace-up-my-sleeve is that the Gorn DD+ has 4 shuttles whereas he only has 1 shuttle. So he'll initially be limited to just on SP unless he tractors it in for later use as another SP. I foresee at least a couple of WW in my future. But yeah, that every-turn disrupter and the ability to put up a wave of 6 drones even without the SP (he has 2xB and 2xC racks) will be a challenge. If he holds firing drones from the racks the first turn and only uses the SP he could have three turns of 6 drones each (6 off the SP and two turns from the racks). Sure I can WW them probably but then that leaves me slow and ripe for an overrun.

I can bluff him maybe with a PPT and perhaps he'll not want to mess around with a G-EPT which for frigates can be pretty hard on the shields. But we'll see. I want a not-so-clear-and-cut challenge. Makes you think! :)

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

Frigate Tournament

Years ago, my gaming group thought it might be fun to play a small-ship tournament. So I put together this thing. It's called a "destroyer tournament", but I ended up with a BPV that everybody's frigates could fit in.

Destroyers, ahhhh

My favorite ship type. I like how they can pack a punch, but without too much record keeping. The Hydran Knight was the one I loved the most. Captured a Klingon Battle Tug with mine. I did get some mod points and the NSM I bought changed a lose into the victory.

Game 1

Game 1: Kzinti FF w/C10 and Y175 refits vs. Gorn DD+ with Sabot refit.

Turn 1:

Gorn is S30 out the gate. Kzinti is S15. Around I4 Kzin lauches the SP. He fires 3 drones off of his racks. 8 impulses later the SP blossoms with 3 drones so now I know I'm facing 3xI and 3xIV. He tried to fake me out though as the SP were the type-I's. I managed to get to R12 and launched a type-G EPT at sabot speed. I was able to take out 3 drones with my ships phasers, 1 with a TB (thought I'd get 2 but he knows how to move drones). He whittled the EPT to 33 points when it hit so I got 5 damage on each shield plus a bit. Not bad for me since we have the paper thin FF shields. After launching I ran like a rabbit. He's doing a great job on his drones, every time I kill one he's launching another.

Turn 2: The Kzin is now S30 and I'm 28. I launch all 4 shuttles an impulse apart. I'm able to kill 2 IV's with them and 2 more with ships phasers. I drop shield #6 and transport a dummy TB 5 hexes from my ship to hopefully influence his movement. He's killed two of my shuttles. We had to stop at I15 and will look to finish tomorrow. So I'm one turn into recharging a plasma (it will likely be a fast charged F I'm thinking).

*Our ships are ten hexes apart at the moment and the east wall is coming up close for me. He's heading to cut me off.
*Four drones on the board at the moment.
*I've got one phaser-1 and one tractor left to use.
*He's got a ph-3 and his disruptor and likely some additional drones to fire.

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

Turn 2.5

Okay, we picked it up midway through T2. I had one ph-1 and one tractor left to use with 4 drones honing in on me. One was at R4 and the rest were at around R8-10. The cat was at R10. I had the east wall coming up alarmingly quick. I wasn't 'that' concerned with his ship as he'd already used his two ph-1's on two of my shuttles. But the drones were another matter. After painstakingly looking at the impulse chart I transported my last real TB, using my last transporter to a spot off my port bow. It took some very careful maneuvering but I managed to give him no choice but to lose two of the drones to the explosion. That left only two drones on the board. Okay, a little breathing room...I thought. I turned and flew directly up the east wall. However, I just couldn't shake the closest drone and he did a great job of keeping it out of the FX arc of my last phaser. I made a mistake and forgot to tractor the darn thing on I32 which of course meant it was going to hit on I1 of T3.

He hit with an OL disruptor that left me with two boxes on my #5. He didn't use the ph-3's as he was too far away to really make it worth while and figured he'd Mizia me through the #5 since I had just turned.

T3

Even though I screwed up on the tractor it really would have only prolonged the inevitable. He would have been able to whack me with two ph-1's and two ph-3's and maybe even the disruptor when it cycled. On top of that he could have launched probably around 3 more drones which would have put 4 on the board that I just couldn't have stopped. Sure, I could have WW'd but he'd have hit R0 on a nearly down shield and then launched drones after the WW. Of course, I didn't arm a WW as I used them earlier as drone fire platforms (which worked at the time).

So end result was the drone that hit was a IV (figures) with a type I about 3-4 hexes away and 3 more ready to launch plus his ships weapons. We rolled the damage up until he hit the torp and a battery which means my fast-fire F was screwed. I resigned.

He played the Kzinti like a champ. He dogged me with his ship every step and used scattered drones to eat away at my ships resources. Having only one G torp was a big disadvantage but I was looking for a real challenge and he provided it.

So IKVAvenger 0 and son-of-IKVAvenger 1

Game 2 will be the Kzinti vs. the Nicozians

Stay tuned.

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

Game

No Nico game yet?

Fear the Nicos!

Game #2

Kzinti FF (C-10 and Y175 refit) 75 BPV

Nicozian FF (50 BPV + 12 points for SW missiles*) 62 BPV

*Nico FF has 2 missile racks of 8 missiles each. 50% can be specialty at 1 point BV each and the other 50% is general at .5 BV each. I split the missiles into a 50/50 split for 12 points.

**As per our discussions and the rules, each missile could be modified. All FF missiles were one-space. Of the 16 available in the racks, 8 were half ASW/half armor. 4 were half explosive/half armor. 4 were full explosive.

T1 (One of the biggest races was defeated by the smallest).

Kzin is S15 and comes head on. I'm SW16 (actual S32) and I dive for the SE corner. He holds the SP till close to the end of the turn. I eventually turn back about mid-turn. At I24 I fire two SW20 (S40) missiles that were half ASW and half armor. We end at maybe 10-12 hexes apart facing each other.

T2

I fire two more SW20 (S40) missiles, all explosive warhead. His SP blossoms with 4 drones (2xI and 2xIV). We close and he labs the missiles and finds out what they are. He has no choice but to fire at R2 with a ph-1 and ph-3 each. He is one point less than what he needed so the missiles still came in the next impulse. I did 16 shield damage. Between a bit of reinforcement and batts he had a three box #1. Next impulse I fire my two FH pulse phasers and knock down his #1 and do one internal (hull). Next impulse he has to move forward (he hadn't fulfilled his TM) and I fire my two SA's at R2 for a total of 36 internals (after we tripled the rolled damage through the down shield). We used the normal SA table to see how it would work. He conceded as 36 points is pretty brutal on an FF and I still had two explosive missiles incoming.

He had planned to do a Kzinti-anchor and let the SP drones hit. Good plan as that was about the only way they would hit. I would have slipped by his drones on the next impulse and probably stayed one hex away the rest of the turn. Had he been able to slap a tractor on me my speed would have been temporarily dropped. I could probably have stopped several of the drones with my RH pulse phasers and one tractor. I would NOT have been able to fight the tractor has he had more power in it than I did. We didn't roll the damage because we figured that we'd have lost the tractor somewhere in the 36 internals (he only had like 10 more total boxes left).

So we are now 1-1.

I found that reducing the ASW warhead and upping the armor helped the missiles actually hit. Having missiles hit are essential for getting the most out of the SA's. I think being able to mix/match the missiles warhead is very necessary. We didn't use any double-spaced missiles because I didn't think an FF would normally carry them. But on a larger vessel it may be beneficial/necessary to have some of them as we've discussed. IIRC, 50% of the specialty missiles could be 2-space heavy missiles? That's 25% of the total compliment and of course the BV is doubled.

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

Frigate Game

Interesting. There is not doubt that at close range against unshielded targets the SAs under the original rules are devastating. This why the Nico's opponent must, at almost any cost, prevent the missiles from hitting, or at least hitting on a shield facing SAs. Phasers, mines, tractors, drones, any other direct fire weapons available should have this as the first priority in most situations.

Armored missiles do help the Nico.

Dennis and I only played cruisers. I wonder if the dynamics of the cruisers is different from the frigate dynamics.

Frigate game again

Questions: Which two missiles hit? Did you upgrade the phaser Ps to Ph1s from phaser 2s?

Sparrish wrote: >>Questions:

Sparrish wrote:

>>Questions: Which two missiles hit? Did you upgrade the phaser Ps to Ph1s from phaser 2s?<<

We are using the ph-1 refit that we discussed as a general rule, but I did not use the refit in this particular game.

The first two missiles fired were the first to hit. Biggest reason was that I had half the warhead as extra armor. He had no choice but to fire while they were at R2 with one ph-1 and one ph-3 but the dice weren't with him. Even if he'd have destroyed each he would not have been able to stop the second pair I fired. Sure, he could have tried transporting a T-bomb out or tractoring one of them but either would have taken some serious thought to make it work.

There will be somewhat of a different dynamic from FF to CA but maybe not a lot. If I were a Nico CA dueling some other CA I'd try the same tactic; corner dodge to put some distance between us so that I could launch all 4 missiles on I24 and then 2 more missiles on I1 of T2. I'd put some armor on at least the first two so that they take 9 damage to destroy. That's pretty significant in that a 9 point missile would take 3xph-3's or good rolls on a ph-1 and ph-3 at close range. Times that by a couple of armored missiles and it's eating up a fair amount of resources. It could force a weasel or make him try to beam out a T-bomb but then he'd have a downed shield probably facing you for at least an impulse. And if he weasels then you could at least overrun and see what the pulse phasers can do. If he does manage to phaser/T-bomb the first 6 missiles I'd toss out the second pair of T2 missiles (full ASW). By the time he takes care of 6 he may not have much, if anything to use against the last pair that would do 32 shield damage.

Sure, he could pop weasels, but he'll probably run out of shuttles before you run out of missiles. Or you can string out the missiles so that it would be a waste to pop a weasel for one or two missiles. By T2 you're holding the SA's for a point each so you can keep the speed up to stay at medium range.

Just some thoughts to toss out.

Oh, and for CA battles I'd definitely try out the tweak we've talked about for a 2-space missile. Figure 25% could be 2-space missiles so that may be a good way of getting some through as well. At the very least putting much more strain on his resources. Imagine having to deal with a couple of 'heavy' missiles that have 8 ASW/4 explosive/2 points of armor (adds 4 to the damage of IIRC a base 7 points for a heavy so that's an 11 point missile)/and one point Eel for one point neg tractor. If he doesn't weasel then hes going to be using up a bunch of phasers or batts on the tractors. T-bombs would be useless against an armored heavy.

In my above example I'd toss out 2 missiles of 8 ASW/2 pts armor, then 2 missiles of 16 ASW then 2 missiles of 8 explosive and then the last 2 missiles as heavies.

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

Frigate game

I think that there might be somewhat of different dynamic in the cruiser game. When fighting a Fed cruiser, the Nicos had 4 missile launchers instead of 2. But they could only control 6 missiles. The Feds had 8 phaser 1s, as well as drones and tractors to deal with them, as well as maneuvering. Yes, this took up a lot of resources, but in the meantime his photons were hitting the Nicos hard, while the SAs are pretty weak against shields.

Nico Frigate Oped?

Looking at the SSD, the Nico frigate might be overpowered. The Nico CA has a BPV of 140, while the Nico FF has a BPV of 50. So the CA is should be nearly 3 times as strong as the FF.

However, comparing what they have is this.

CA FF
SAs 4 2
Phasers 8 4
Missiles 4 2
Warp 16 4 However, since the FF has a 1/4 movement cost, they can both move the same speed.
APR 11 4
Impulse 6 6
# Non-warp 17 10
Batteries 3 2
Shield #1 20 16
" #2 20 12
" #3 16 12
" #4 16 12
" #5 16 12
" #6 20 12
Front armor 10 4
Rear armor 6 2
Labs 3 2
Turn Mode H E

In almost every respect the FF has half or more of the capability of the CA. (The only respect they don't are armor, and warp counted as energy. But as I said, they still have the same speed.) If the CA BPV of 140 is assumed to be about "right" in its BPV, the FF should have at least half the BPV: in other words, should be at least 70 or 75, or even 80. Add 12 points for the missiles. Also, since the game was played with non-standard rules about missiles, this would increase the BPV even more.

Thoughts?

Bad chart line up

Sigh. After I posted the above, I saw that the neat lines I had were messed up. The chart is still readable, as the first number pertains to the CA, the second to the FF.

Agreed

The 50 BPV is too low for the FF. Most other comparable FF's are around the 70-75 mark. If the missiles were a 50/50 split then you're adding 12 points. If the discussed phaser refit is used then add 4 points (1 each would be about right).

Couple of considerations would be putting a year on the availability of specialty missiles and/or speed. And I concur with raising the BPV to between 70-80.

*I did make one mistake in the game, but it would not have affected the outcome. Per FD9422 any missile that is modified automatically becomes restricted availability. So half of my missiles would have been SW10 and full ASW. I only fired 1/4 of the missiles in the racks so it's a moot point as far as this game went, but something to remember for the future. I still would have fired the restricted/modified (as per the rules) missiles first.

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

Agreed

Thanks for your comment.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but I thought your win sounded awfully easy. Part of it was that your opponent had some bad luck, but I think the Nico had an edge in the game. Against an Kzinti or other ship with about a 90-95 or so BPV, the game might have turned out differently.

Increasing the BVP to about

Increasing the BVP to about 75 w/o missiles sounds about right. That would bring it to 87 BPV w/missiles and not counting heavy missiles which an FF probably would have anyway realistically. Add in the ph-1 refit and now you're at 92 BPV. That's around a Kzinti HFF or a Klingon F5BK with the Y175 refit. That would probably be more of an even battle. The Kzin is going to need that extra ph-1 to help deal with a wave of armored missiles and the extra disruptor to get through the Nico's armor.

So yeah, I'd say maybe a base value of 75 is more realistic.

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

Yes

That sounds about right. Of course, the calculations depend to a certain extent on the Nico CA having the right BPV.

Killing the missiles is the key to beating the Nicos, especially with the original SA table. Kzintis, Klingons and other drone races should use drones to knock out missiles, especially if they are weak in phasers.

Dennis is very good at killing missiles, or avoiding them with fancy maneuvering. Which is the reason I came up with the revised SA table. We did only test cruisers.

BTW

What books are the HFF and the F5BK? I may not have them.

Frigate Books

He probably means the Kzinti FH, which gives the FF an extra ph-1 up front and an extra Disruptor, but takes shock damage if it uses both disruptors in the same 16 impulses. That shows up in module R2.

The Klingon F5BK is the standard Klingon F5, with the B and the K refits. Usually the B refit (y168) is assumed by the time that the K refit (y175-ish) comes around, and so you'll often see "F5K" when they mean a fully-refit F5.
Anecdotally, the Y175 refit almost never has a published suffix on the designation of anyone's ships. I've taken to noting it with a small-y (e.g. "F5Ky") in my own records.

Books

Thanks.

Matt's correct

I meant FH for the Kzinti. And that's actually a very good ship for the class. We've used it before and it's tough.

And correct on the F5BK having the B and K refits. Also a good little ship. I think either would be a better match for the Nico FF than the standard Kzin FF was. The standard FF for the Kzin is kinda like the Gorn I used in the first game...just didn't have enough in terms of DF weapons to combat the missiles or get through the armor of the Nico. Not saying the Kzin FH or Klink F5K would necessarily win automatically but it would be a stiffer fight for the Nico.

A way to look at the Nico is that the SA's against shields is like a weak and lousy arming standard disruptor. Against unshielded you're looking at photon+ damage (at close range) or OL disruptor damage farther out. And at a better power curve even with the cool down turn.

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

Different races

I moved this post to the Nico section, as that is where it really belongs..

right on

in our small circle, nothing beats a good "frigate war" . . . teaches resourcefulness in a hurry (for me, anyway) - pick your poison wisely :)

Yeah, frigates are my son's

Yeah, frigates are my son's favorite type of ship to play. As we're doing this tournament I'm getting to see the fairly wide range of BPV between different empire's frigates. A good example is the Gorn. You really need to be up into the Gorn DD class to compete with many other empire's FF's and even then it is against the Gorn.

We're having a great time of it. I'm really hoping we can get a game in this weekend.

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

Game #3

Game #3

Kzinti DF (my son) beats Romulan KF5R (me)

T1:

I came out at S30, the Kzin was S15. He launched 6 ship drones early on. I launched a PPT and a Pl-F around R12. His SP blossomed late in the turn with 6 drones. He fired on the PPT with all his phasers (2xph-1 and 2xph-3). He did a good job of juking the Pl-F so that it ended up hitting his #5 for 15 (3 internals of nothing big). I managed to wipe out his 6 SP drone wave with my two TB's. I phasered 5 of his ship drones and tractored the other. He hit me at the end of the turn with his disruptor but it bounced off my reinforced shield.

T2:

He launches another wave of 6 drones from the ship while coming in at S30. I'm tac'ing at S0. I fire the other Pl-F and cloak. He fails to retain lock-on so the drones are removed. My plasma hits again on his #5 (he forgot it was down) so I whack him for another 15 - 8 for phaser damage and 1 for the one box he repaired so I get 6 inside. That netted the Disruptor, ph-3, drone and a couple of power!! Feeling pretty good since he is now down his HW, a couple of power (which hurts on a frigate and of course a drone rack).

T3:

I'm back uncloaked and chasing at S10 and he's at S15. He launches 5 ship drones while he's licking his wounds and running. I have a WW but figure I'll phaser the drones so I can maintain speed. Yeah, bad idea. I forego tractoring a couple of them (another mistake on my part) and figure my 2xph-1's and 3xph-2's will take them out. Well he faked my out and all 5 were type-IV! I kill two of them but the other hit my #2 so after shields and reinforcement he's netted 30 and I concede. I should have either just weaseled or tractored a couple and I would have been fine. But I didn't so I turned a comfortable lead into a defeat. Good for him. That's why he's our resident Kzinti player.

So it's 1-2 his favor :)

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

Game #4

We've randomly chosen the two ships for the next game using a random numbers generator. My son will be the Maesron frigate and I'll be a Kolighr patrol boat. They are within a couple of BV points of each other. Cool that the random number generator actually chose two Omega races. Looking forward to this match up. :)

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

Game #4

Game #4:

Kzinti FF vs. Paravian FF.

Just a quick note on this game. My son of course was the Kzin and he did his usual excellent job with his drones. I managed to destroy his SP before it blossomed and tractor a couple of his drones. I also killed a couple of his other drones I managed to hit him him with two standard and two overloaded QWT (on different shields. I got him for 10 internals total.

He managed to knock a couple of shields down with disruptor, phasers and a drone. The clincher was him being able to send a couple of drones in through a down shield...one was a ship wrecker. I conceded.

1-3 his favor.

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser