Federation SSDs

It was possible to include

It was possible to include all the system squares within the outline of the basic B&W SSD (fourth SSD above). On the CA SSD's which more accurately reflected the hull design it became necessary to put some of the system squares outside the secondary hull due to space. Overall I'm fairly satisfied with the more accurate hull SSD's and color versions.

The SSD's represented include the ASW system which has been working out exceptionally well. It has effectively followed our policy of removing drones from Federation ships yet provide a small measure of drone and plasma defense.

The Fed was the first race I/we began including a 'Weapons Date' box on the SSD. It has been a nice ready reference, particularly for new players.

The last two SSD's above are X2 ships. They could easily be X1 ships too be honest with the appropriate changes made. As they are, they have the Ph-V & Ph-VI, the increased batteries and the a couple of systems we're taking a look at;

A2WR = a standard AWR that produces two points of warp power rather than one point. Of course, if it is destroyed it also reduces the ships total power by two points.

AW2BR = a standard AWR that produces two points of warp power as above. It is also a one point battery that holds ONLY warp power. Again, a hit destroys two points of power produced and the battery.

None of these are written in stone but are the bed for testing.

Although ADB isn't licensed to do anything beyond TOS, that doesn't prevent players from doing TMP or TNG SSD's for personal use. The above X2 ships are TMP era and would probably be better served as X1 ships actually which X2 being closer to TNG era type ships. Just a thought.

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

You will notice each of our

You will notice each of our Feds comes with the ASW system (Anti Seeking weapon). This is similar to an ADD. It uses the same (though relabeled) chart for hit %. It will do 6 points vs. drones & shuttles. Rather than the 'pellets' of the ADD, it produces an electrical discharge that causes damage and therefore is also usable against plasma for 6 points of damage = 3 actual points off the warhead.

In our FTF games, the Feds don't have drones. Only the Klinks, Kzin and the Orions have them. But it was felt that 'some' seeking weapon defense was necessary. The ASW has proven useful so far but not monumentally overwhelming defensively. In otherwords we've found it balanced. And the Feds like it :)

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

TMP and beyond

I am by no means initiating a flame-war or trolling anyone, i am just pointing a few somethings out here in a previous comment...

1.) While you are correct that SVC and ADB do NOT own the rights to post anything in regards to TMP or beyond, the scope of his license IS limited to what can be done, and as such he dwelleth nor dabbleth in that gray area.

2.) Likewise as such SVC's license DOES require him to monitor fan-fic (if you will) and fan creations to make sure as to not violate his license agreement, and i might be going out on a limb here when i say that, BUT the Fed X2DN you have posted there does violate his license in the aspect that you DO have a picture of the NCC-1701-B pictured next to it.

3.) While i do like fanart SSDs just as much as others, i for one do NOT wish to see ADBs license pulled for one SSD made by a fan, there is an issue that delves into the gray matter area due to the use of the Excelsior shaped shillouette, as with the scale side drawing of the NCC-1701-A on the X2CC.

Thank you for your time reading my post here, and again there is no ill intention of trolling or a flame-war, just some observations from a fan of SVCs work

I believe this is an unauthorized web site (in a good way)

I do not believe ADB's license is in jeopardy from the posts here.

ADB's web policy pertaining their own BBS and any web site which agrees to be "authorized" is that anything posted on those websites are "submissions" to ADB and become their property. As such ADB cannot condone any "submission" which would violate 3rd party copyright and/or violate licensing agreements because in effect, it would be like ADB using copyrighted material without permission. ADB would delete or ask such material to be deleted.

Postings of material on "Unauthorized" web sites (and perhaps the forum moderator could verify that this web site is in fact "unauthorized") is not considered a submission to ADB, and intellectual property rights are retained by the poster or whomsoever would have the right to retain copyright. Note that ADB considers weapons tables and movement charts copyrighted and does not give permission for these to be posted to unauthorized sites. Likewise, pre-existing ship SSDs, even if redrawn are considered by ADB to copyrighted or at least derivative works which they have the right to control, and they do not give permission for these to be posted on unauthorized sites.

ADB does permit fan SSDs to be posted on "unauthorized" sites as long as they are of "whole cloth" and new, so to speak (as this is likely not derivative work they really don't have to allow it, its not theirs). ADB does not permit the use of ADB trademarks (such as "SFB" or "Star Fleet Battles") to sell this material (or even material from an authorized site).

As unauthorized material is never submitted to ADB, ADB does not (de facto) own it. The poster may have included ADB material without ADB's permission, in which case ADB owns that portion, and ADB may have grounds under the DMCA to have the material removed. This is true for other third party copyright owners. However, if ADB is not claiming ownership, and all reasonable persons would agree that they don't own it, then I doubt ADB is required to police unofficial material inspired by SFB or for use with SFB (but not advertised as such). If a poster to a public forum uses someone else's copyrighted material without permission, it is my understanding that this is the poster's problem and the public forum does not have to "police" it until they have been notified by the copyright owner of the offending material.

FWIW this arrangement allows players to contribute a great deal freely (and for free or for token payments). ADB is clear about all of this up to a point, and generally will let you assume they have more rights than they for certain do or the reasoning behind it may be X when it is Y (but they do have a lot of rights). This isn't nefarious, it just isn't in their best interests to explain to you how you (might) push things to the maximum extreme. Even so, SVC is pretty open about all of this. Over the (decades!) I've noticed that SVC/ADB will get the most prickly and suddenly opaque about things IF he accidentally gave constructive or tacit approval for the use of his copyrights and suddenly realizes he's committed a sin of omission. ADB can't or won't say "Well, you might have had a case for a while but now I'm reconsidering" - to protect their rights, they will claim you are mistaken - as frankly any business would that is protecting their IP. It clashes a bit with the openness and does cause some confusion, though.

Just to note: It was not,

Just to note: It was not, and is not my intention to cause or create a problem with SVC/ADB or anyone. There are SFB/SFU/SSD websites all over the net, most of which I would 'think' are not authorized by the company, yet not violating anyone's license??? Some of these SSD sites go back to the beginnings of the internet so have been around for quite some time. They use the weapons charts and such. I've not heard of SVC/ADB having an issue with them over the fan created SSD's and stuff.

Having said that, if SVC/ADB contacted me (my email is right here on the board) and stated it was causing an issue then I'd immediately take down the website. My intention isn't to deride ADB products in any way, shape or form. I do not sell anything and I believe I stated on the front page this is all fan-created and for fun. My reasoning is that for someone to play the game, they must already own the rules. If they own the rules, then they likely have SSD's as well. At least the more common ones. Which are the ones I've tweaked up to a 21st century look.

My sole intention really is simply to have some fun, promote SFB and conversation about it. :)

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser


For those interested, check out the "Online Copyright Infringement Liability Limitation Act", http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_Copyright_Infringement_Liability_Lim....

OCILLA limits the liability of online service providers (like the SFBOC) providing they meet the conditions of "safe harbor" outlined.

Users of online service providers are not protected by OCILLA.

These posts are merely informational. They shouldn't be taken in context to think I'm judging whether any material is infringing or not.

Since ADB has no relationship to any "unauthorized SFU" site, with regards to the original question, any "take down" notice by a third party copyright holder would be between the unauthorized SFU online service provider.

ADB is protectected by OCILLA. Note that OSP safe harbor is only if a) you don't monitor and b) if you (the OSP)didn't have any reason to know you were hosting somnething infringing. Hence, if ADB's BBS monitor sees something infringing, they have to take it down even prior to a takedown notice. Of course, if they don't know, they are protected until a take down notice comes.

DJ Elvis

Perhaps it'd be better to read up on the DMCA and related copyright laws FIRST before commenting how something is or migth be violating copyright laws....

Copyright and posting on the web is a really complex/No Worries

Copyright and posting on the web is a really complex subject. ADB has fostered a strong sense of its fans being "stakeholders" in the SFU. There is a very subtle difference between feeling like a "stakeholder" and an "owner" to the point where it can get understandably confusing. We may be stakeholders but we are definitively not owners either. So taking the point of view that an SFU fan feels like a stakeholder; he may be movitated to express a concern that fans of another game (of a company that didn't promote or treat fans like stakeholder) wouldn't bother as they would never think it was their responsibility. I think we ought to respect and in some cases foster the stakeholder feeling within bounds. So taking the poster at his words that he wasn't trying to start a flamewar; he was, just as a stakeholder, feeling concerned. The downside of being stakeholders in the SFU is that we sometimes may get into each others "business" , so to speak, in a way that would be of no interest under other circumstances. Unfortunately complex legal subjects are charged, people like myself like to blather on and on, and flamewars are all just too easy under the circumstances. So IMHO, I think the owners, not the stakeholders, should police their own material. I understand why a stakeholder would be concerned. In the end, is it a biggie? No, I don't think so. So, IMHO, no worries.

If one is unsure...

..then one should make interrogative statements, not declarative ones....

Not Authorized

"Postings of material on "Unauthorized" web sites (and perhaps the forum moderator could verify that this web site is in fact "unauthorized") is not considered a submission to ADB, and intellectual property rights are retained by the poster or whomsoever would have the right to retain copyright."

This web site is definitely "unauthorized" by Amarillo Design Bureau, Inc.

I had to juggle the boxes

I had to juggle the boxes around a bit for looks, but everything is there. :)

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser


FWIW, i AM a starfleet ranger and playtester for SVC / ADB, i demo his products, i playtest new material with my fathers battlegroup quite frequently, i do have a liking for the game, and do wish to see it continue, and ftr, this site has been submitted to SVC / ADB pending review for web piracy, results will be unknown to anyone other than the office staff as he doesnt tell us whats going on with them, there IS a clear violation in HIS web policy for using the SSD look and not submitting to him, and IF there is an SSD out there, somewhere on the site it is listed on it will say submission pending © yyyy, the reason behind SVC requesting to have something submitted it to make sure it ISNT in violation of the agreement between ADB / paramount seeing as he is ONLY allowed certain ships and had to create more. By displaying what you have shown on yours, with the correlation to the NCC-1701-A on one of your SSDs, and the color scheme of the B on another, that would be seen as a violation by paramount, and get ADB in trouble.

I have to ask:

Why are we displaying SSDs on this site, as awesome as they might be? IKV Avenger, do you plan on submitting this to ADB for their opinion, or are we just trying to create problems here? Have you been in contact with them?


Once again, I admonish you to know what the hell you are talking about before acting like an ass

RE: Elvis

no where in either of my posts have i acted like an ass, i have pointed out what i know to hold true of ADB, and my workings with SVC, all i did in either post was point out where the violation comes in at, and express my feelings on what could happen if paramount got a bug up their ass, as im sure they could at any moment, seeing as history repeats itself, if you look back on the ENTIRE SFU, not JUST SFB / ADB products, but include:
Decipher - Star Trek CCG, 1st Ed Premiere - Enterprise Collection, 2nd Edition "Premiere" - What You Leave Behind, Decipher lost their copyright for selling to much
FASA - great line of minis, great mods, GONE
Last Unicorn Games, gone due to work providing much capital

you might ask what all 3 companies had in common or have to do with my posts here, Paramount screwed them over, it CAN happen at a moments notice and i for one, amongst others do NOT wish to see SVC / ADB lose their license b/c someone like you wants to make a fan based SSD that will get then in trouble for copyright infringement, now if the design of the sheet were changede and the 4 views removed from them, and the 1701-B SSD had the coloring removed all would be better, and they wouldnt be able to yell Infringement

RE: I Have To Ask

Droid, i couldnt agree more, the simplest thing would be to submit them copyright pending, and BOOM all solved

I guess I don't see the fuss

I guess I don't see the fuss really. Why Paramount would worry about something like this is rather odd. And holding ADB accountable for what the fans do is rather odd. If it were an issue, Don Miller would have had to pull his website over a decade ago. He has all sorts of SSD's, some with TMP and TNG images and he has no 'copyright pending' or 'submitted for review' or anything of the sort. And no one has seemed to care either way about his website.


My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

I Beg To Differ

based on your comment in regards to Don Miller, ALL of his SSDs contain the following info:

His Signature
"Submitted to and © yyyy ADB, Inc
Evaluation by ADB, Inc is pending.

and in accordance with ADBs web-policy which you are ALL aware of, as the rants about Jeremy Grey, since Don posted them on his site before approval, they will NEVER be published for official use, not matter how many of us petition SVC to do it. The reason paramount isnt going after DM is b/c he has gone about it in a manner that DOESNT violate anything, now if all the SSDs on this site were submitted to SVC / ADB for approval and it were listed as such on the SSD in the manner DM does, then we wouldnt be getting into this. Thats the easiest solution, submit them, and reflect it on your SSDs

I'm looking at Don Miller's

I'm looking at Don Miller's TMP Enterprise SSD as I type this, it doesn't contain anything you've mentioned above other than his name....

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser


I believe what IKVSabre is referencing when refering to you as an ass is that you are posting comments on the law of copyright without knowing the law on copyright.

Specifically, charts and forms are not protected by copyright. Therefore, an SSD, which is in essense nothing more then a complication of charts and forms, would not be protected by copyright. Or so the argument goes.

Now I understand that ADB regularly sends cease and desist orders to websites that post SSDs and those sites usually take them down. However, if he ever gets a site owner that is willing to say no and fight it out, he may not win.

Look Avenger, i am going to

Look Avenger, i am going to be the better man and leave this horse to die, we are both at odds here, being that i am a fan of SVCs work, i will defend it to my grave, you think that fans should be allowed to do what they want, so lets just agree to disagree on this topic and let it go, as for Don, he is another story all together, what he does is between himself and SVC. If you guys wish to keep posting SSDs, then thats on yall, the only thing i caution is go ahead and submit them to ADB, then if someone else comes on here there is no more trouble like this


i wasnt disputing as much the layout of the charts/ forms, i was more pointing out where he included a PICTURE of various views of the NCC-1701-A on the SSD, and also the Scheme of color used on the B look-alike, that in itself is what i was calling a violation, if you read the Traveler games forum on the star fleet mod, you will see where they want to stat out the Voyager, or something along those lines that ABD cant use, and that is where my post(s) came from, as i said to Avenger in my previous post, no more will i argue this, you guys wanna post these things, go ahead

Commander's SSDs

Old timers may recall that the boxed sets of the Commander's Edition included SSDs which only included a drafted rendition of the SSD without the charts, tables, or other ship information present.

The transisition to Commander's SSDs certainly added convenience for the players. But I would also speculate that it had additional benefits for ADB in that it may have strengthened the intellectual property position of the SSD concept for ADB. ADB created the expectation by players that SSDs should have charts and tables on the SSD, and in addition to the graphical representation of the unit. If I understand correctly, the copyrights and trademarks with textual items are much more difficult to "get around" by trying to transcribe into a different form - changing font doesn't even create a derivative work. Whereas, I am speculating here, purely graphical elements can be altered in some graphically meaningful way (but not material to play) and become derivative works. Now, derivative works are not copyrighted by the original holder, but the original copyright holder does have the right to control or prevent publication of derivative works. On the other hand, if you just create something that looks like an SSD but doesn't have the same number of boxes or types or whatever as a copyrighted graphic the situation gets to a point where it probably wouldn't necessarily be derivative. Now of course, by creating the expectation that players want "Commanders SSDs" with the charts and tables, ADB has a claim that any "Commanders SSD" that uses them not copyrighted by ADB may be infringing copyrights and trademarks, if only with the non-graphical representation.

DJ, I'm not at odds with you


I'm not at odds with you at all. I was asking a simple question about Don's SSD's. You stated that ALL had 4 things listed to make them okay. The first one I looked at didn't have any of that information, beyond his name. So I'm not at odds with you, just pointing out that what you said isn't factual.

I don't have any issue with SVC or ADB. I've had two nice conversations with SVC on the phone a few years ago about SFB. I've had email interaction with him that was fine as well. I'm not part of the politics that have gone on and don't wish to be.

As I said before, if SVC or ADB felt my little website was an issue then all they have to do is sent me a friendly email asking me to take it down. And I would. It is that simple. From my understanding, Don and many, many other websites have been around pretty much since the web began and they're still there. So it must not really be an issue???

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser


The problem with your comments is that the graphic is a copyright of Paramount and not ADB. Therefore, ADB has no standing to issue a cease and desist based on the underlying picture.

Charts and Tables

Archduke has mentioned you can't copyright charts and tables. A quick search through the web indicates that this is correct, although I'm not an expert. I wonder how this works with "created data" vs. "natural data". This would leave only graphical elements and trademarks? Perhaps some of the charts would be considered to be graphics? So...nevermind. Apologies to all.

"i will defend it to my grave"


Speculation is hardly a good basis upon which to post as you have.


Very little about a game is copyrightable. I've previously posted the directive from the US COPYRIGHT OFFICE (emphasis for DJ Elvis, not for you) about what is, and is not, copyrightable.

As Archduke (A LAWYER, Elvis) pointed out, ADB has no standing to file against something that doesn't violate ADB's copyright. Whatever agreement ADB has with Paramount is not binding on a third party, except relating to submissions by that third part to ADB, and if the party is violating Paramount's copyright, ADB is not responsible for that.

Go look up the T&C for the DMCA (as an active YouTuber, I've had to deal with this often, and have seen the results of proper and improper DMCA filings)

let me ask this.....

let me ask this, if i could point out not only with active web reference, but provide a link or quote VERABTIM where a copyright violation is going on, would that mean in accordance with your on post [quote]As I said before, if SVC or ADB felt my little website was an issue then all they have to do is sent me a friendly email asking me to take it down. And I would. [/quote] does that mean the item(s) in question would be removed b/c as it stands right now, i have seen a copyright violation on this page AND atleast 2 or 3 more pages....

Elvis, you seem to be missing several points...

"if i could point out not only with active web reference, but provide a link or quote VERABTIM where a copyright violation is going on"

1) No one is questioning that the NCC-1701 belongs to PARAMOUNT. But ADB doesn't have standing to file a claim against them for that, as noted by Archduke.

2) In whatever way that the images would violate PARAMOUNT'S copyright, the SSDs being posted here in no wya emperil ADB, as they are not ADB's workproduct, nor where they solicited by ADB.

3) As Archduke and others also pointed out, forms are not copyrightable, and as such, making your own SSDs in and of themselves does not violate ADBs copyright, UNLESS you include certain elements that are trademarks of or copyrighted by ADB.

4) ADB monitor this site. They are aware of the contents, including whatever SSDs are posted. They can, have and would inform any site that they felt were infringining their copyright.

5) The fact that you have an SFB website kind of makes you a hypocrit.

So instead of feeling all self-important and electing yourself Admiral Buzzkill, try to understand at least a little bit of what is going on, and how things work.

point all you want

i never said anything about owning an SFB website, to which that accusation holds FALSE as i dont have one, and also if you think i do have one i would like to know what makes you think that, and what you think the link would be, and the reference to a copyright violation does NOT even pertain to the NCC- Paramount issue i was referring to earlier, there is another issue on this page and 2 others i can site, IF avenger wishes me to


just wondering when elvis got resurected? Dec of 2011? Pretty recent.

RE elvis?

i am an online DJ, and this is my DJ name, thus the user name here

What made me think that

"As I said before, if SVC or ADB felt my little website was an issue then all they have to do is sent me a friendly email asking me to take it down."

You left out "IF I had a website, and ...."

Your statement was ambiguously written.

no, i only copied part of his

no, i only copied part of his quote, IF you wanna say i have a website, i DO have one, but all it is is a page on ADB showing all my awards that i have accumulated


Joe, I very much appreciate your sentiment of wanting to share your SSDs. You obviously have worked hard on them, and you have given them some very nice artistic flair that has been lacking in ADB SFB SSDs (even Fed Com SSDS don' have your flair).

I, and I'm sure a lot of our open community readers, don't have the time or motivation to go police SSDs which may be posted on the web.

On the other hand, being that this is an open community forum, it is probably inevitable that third parties, such as Mr. Elvis, will eventually post concerns about infringement. And whether or not a poster has personal grounds to generate a take down notice is probably not going to deter them; and based on the charter of the open commmunity being "open" - no deletes, bans, etc. a debate will likely ensue. And in public. And preserved for years.

I'm sure their is a spectrum of opinion, but for myself I don't want to alienate you (Joe) or Mr. Elvis, or condone infringement, or unecessarily restrict posting of SSDs on this board. I am concerned that the infringement debate, if entered, requires the poster of material such as SSDs to be on the strongest of grounds - or it will just be a classification excersise of "that bit's infringing" and "that bit is not infringing". That kind of seems like a hollow victory - the no win scenario. I am not sure you (Joe) would want to care what I think, but I'd be sad to see you get angry and alienated at the SFB community defending or debating the SSD posts or certain elements therein. That is, I think your on going prescense on the SFB open community boards is more valuable than the risk of your being alienated because of Mr. Elvis, ADB, Paramount, or any future takedown notices from said parties.

And BTW if everyone thinks I am being overly melodramatic, please forgive me.

Admiral D - I'm not IKV Avenger

I'm IKV Sabre. David Schultz is IKV Avenger. I didn't work on them at all, they aren't mine. I didn't produce them, post them, host them, or even look at most of them.

My issues with Elvis is that he's wrong on a number of points, but because he is too busy playing savior, he doesnt' recognize it or want to acknowledge it.

He's creating an issue where one doesn't exist, on a quixotic quest to "save" ADB from liability which they would not have in the worst case. That's not laudible, that's laughable.

The information regarding copyight infringement is readily available on the web. Rather than running off half-cocked based on speculation, it behooves anyone concerned to actually look up the information before acting like Admiral Buzzkill of the USS Narc.

Sorry Joe, David

Heh, well don't I look like an idiot. Many pardons to both Joe and David for confusing your guys' handles. Really embarassing.

@ Admiral D, So...you're

@ Admiral D,

So...you're saying all us Klingons look the same? That's profiling LOL

Seriously though, no problem :)

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

As a friend of Jeremy Gray's,

As a friend of Jeremy Gray's, I have to point out that nobody forced him to take his website down. He took it down in response to an abusive over-reaction by Cole to his "modern" Paravian SSDs being published on the web... after SVC had already told Jeremy, years prior, to "just go ahead and put up your SSDs and we'll let you know if they need to come down." This was because Jeremy was submitting so many SSDs that ADB couldn't keep up with reviewing them.

Jeremy was a prolific contributor of ship designs and SSDs and has had several ships published in the game, including the Fed Strike Cruiser and Klingon B4 Early Battleship. Which, by the way, were also on the web prior to (but not after) publication.

Other than the Borak project - which was designed prior to that event - he has not submitted a design or SSD since, and his website remains down.

So it is not HIS fault that the Paravians will "never have a BB published". I just want that clear.

They got to Don

Just tried looking up the Paravian on Don Miller's site since I knew he had a couple of them there. Well the pages are gone.

I just took a look at Don's

I just took a look at Don's site and he's taken the entire SFB section down completely. That's too bad as he really put a lot of work into his SSD's, modifications and ideas. Oh well. I took down my website as frankly, I just don't need the hassle. I did it for fun and to promote the game. When it ceases to be fun, so does the desire to promote the game.

Our modified SSD's were originally meant for our FTF game, and that is enough.

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

Yep, this is the direct

Yep, this is the direct result of the "GIA patrol" running to report every little site (and earn a merit badge for it). Even ones that have been online for years, nay, decades, are now being targeted.

While I hadn't touched Don's stuff in a long time, I had fun with it years back. This is a sad day.

The most important point...

"When it ceases to be fun, so does the desire to promote the game.

...brought up in this discussion. So, dj.elvis (and people like him) think they're being great little boy scouts, and all they really accomplish is to destroy what little waning interest is left. Bravo.

NO ONE is more anti-piracy than me (as soon as I started working for a living, I very quickly understood the error of my youthful ways). I don't accept the arguments from people that pirate that "I wouldn't have bought it anyway and the like. BUT these sites that PROMOTE interest are not pirates.

The "merit badge" is a pyrrhic victory indeed.

I wouldn't have bought it anyway

That's just basic economics, as the price comes down demand goes up. some things are more price sensitive than others. At Zero price you are extremely likely to have a higher demand than if it actually cost something.

I'm not into piracy either, I always refuse copies of things politely.

However, that doesn't mean I wouldn't have something for free that I wouldn't buy. Music is an obvious case, There is a lot of music I'd have for free if it was legally available, but I'm not so into music that I ever buy any. Games are another, I only have so much money to spend on gaming and therefore only buy so much based on certain priorities, but if I could get hold of stuff free or a lot lot cheaper I would happily have games that I would otherwise never buy, but look interesting.

The reason I don't take those things is my view on legality/moraility, to a large extent I'm not into taking things I know are knockoffs. However, just because you have a different view point on legality does not mean you are somehow exempt from the usual price/demand pressures. If they couldn't get their pirate copies then they woudn't suddenly be buying everything that they woud otherwise pirate.

Past investigations from the music industry itself have acknowledged that probably somewhere between 1/10 and 1/20 people taking pirate copies are actual lost sales. Sheer volumes of course can still mean a serious amount of lost revenue.

Non of that is to say that it is right (or wrong) to pirate, but the basic argument that there must be a lot of pirate stuff that would not have been otherwise bought is pretty sound.

SSDs are staying here

For the record, we are happy to host fan-created, variant SSDs here. We will not bow to illegitimate pressure to remove them.

We have access to attorneys, some with a career focus in intellectual property issues. If we get what appears to be a legitimate cease and desist order, we will review it with our legal counsel. If we determine it to be valid and compelling, we will then act upon it.

We've had some of these SSDs posted here for months, and have not received any such requests from ADB.

The biggest obstacle is me finding the time to upload the files to the server. I'll detail that in a different forum; it probably deserves its own discussion.


The difference, storyelf...

"Non of that is to say that it is right (or wrong) to pirate, but the basic argument that there must be a lot of pirate stuff that would not have been otherwise bought is pretty sound."

...is that the argument is not a sound JUSTIFICATION for stealing. It's a rationalization, and a poor one at that.

Strike Carrier



I copied the html from the email, but the image did not show up. I still have the link to the carrier though. I'll play with it a bit :)

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser


Lee did not call it a justification. When a company, like a record label, has a song pirated though, for example, an mp3 download, they are greatly overstating their losses if they claim that every mp3 unpaid for is a lost sale. That has nothing to do with the ethics of pirating the song in the first place by each user that does so (and Lee specifically noted that he was not commenting on those ethics, as noted in the section of his text that you quoted).

The ethics of the pirate are a separate issue from the economic impact to the company. Pirating might cost some sales, might, alternatively (though allowing greater exposure) increase sales over what they would have been in a no-pirating worlds, or might have a mostly neutral impact. I suspect the continuum on that issue varies by product. What they don't cost, however, is loss of sales on a one for one basis and anyone or any company claiming otherwise is wrong.

P.S., Lee is not an Elf. :)

I disagree Joe

I won't ever buy SFB stuff because honestly, I don't play the game anymore. I am pretty much strictly an F&E and Federation Commander guy now. However, if SFB stuff can be gotten for free, I just might download it.

Further, this can lead to some future purchases because it might restoke my interest in SFB. I say this because I have about 12-14 books of the Ring of Fire series on my bookshelves because Eric Flint put "1632" online for free. I have also read the whole Honor Harrington series, including all the anthologies and spin off series, based entirely on the fact that I was able to read the first book, "On Basilik Station" online for free.

Eric Flint has a really interesting series of columns on copyright and online piracy. First in a column called the Prime Palaver on Baens Free Library and then in Notes from Big Brother on Baen's enewsletter. They were very interesting and really influenced a lot of my thinking on copyright law in general. Here is a link to his general overview if anybody is interested .


Well, on the plus side this

Well, on the plus side this is bringing a lot of discussion and posting here on this board :) That's good for the life of the board.

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

@ Archduke, I agree. The

@ Archduke,

I agree. The 'meat and potatoes' of SFB are the rules and modules. You can't play the game without having them. The SSD's, and I'll go so far as to say a catchy, attractive SSD is what will catch a person's eye first and foremost. This will bring them to the game and get them interested. From there they may become interested in purchasing CL's, perhaps a module or whatever. Having people so interested in creating SSD's isn't costing the company, it is an investment in their product.

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser


"...is that the argument is not a sound JUSTIFICATION for stealing. It's a rationalization, and a poor one at that."

I wasn't justifying nor rationalising pirates, I was merely commenting on the idea that someone who takes a pirate copy would have bought it otherwise.

I was trying to avoid the ethics side as much as possible, as that can get a bit contentious in my experience. Legality and Morality are two different things.


I know Lee didn't say it was a justification. Sorry if I wasn't more clear, but my point was that my previous statement was concerning justification.


"Further, this can lead to some future purchases because it might restoke my interest in SFB. I say this because I have about 12-14 books of the Ring of Fire series on my bookshelves because Eric Flint put "1632" online for free. I have also read the whole Honor Harrington series, including all the anthologies and spin off series, based entirely on the fact that I was able to read the first book, "On Basilik Station" online for free. "

The the content maker puts it online FOR you, then clearly, that's not piracy, so it really isn't relevent to the discussion, IMO.

And to further clarify

Just a reminder to people that I've been DEFENDING the sites that have the variant SSDs. I've been pretty clear that to me this is NOT piracy, but rather promotion.


The point Archduke was making wasn't on piracy, per se, but on the free availability of product.
No matter who puts it up, free content will generate SOME sales, even if it's a small amount. And in most cases it's going to be less than the sales lost to piracy, but that's actually really hard to measure, for all the reasons discussed above.

Saaur is correct

in what I was trying to say. However, I would disagree the generated sales would be less then the sales lost to piracy. This is also part of the point I was trying to make. It is also a big portion of Eric Flint's comments. He discusses how within months of putting "On Basilisk Station" free online it became Baen's most popular backlist in paper.

Don Miller here.

EDIT: Moving my post to the other thread, now that I see it: http://sfb.swa-gaming.org/node/333

Image not displaying...

Re: Friday 12/23, 11:51.

Looks like it's not working for me either. Not sure why that is. Perhaps something in the link about "cgi-bin"?


I don't see why anyone would object to redoing SSDs in favor of more realistic ship images in the background. I've looked at the ones posted here and they look pretty cool.

The investment in all the previous SSD books might be disheartening, but everything ADB does is a work in progress.

DC,I'm just not sure why it


I'm just not sure why it isn't working. It links to the SSD without a problem, it just isn't displaying it here like the other SSD's.


Thank you. I like the way they're shaping up. The more I work on, the better their getting.

"The investment in all the previous SSD books might be disheartening, but everything ADB does is a work in progress."

The game is a work in progress. I don't have every SSD that has been produced. But for the most part, the ones that I've done are mostly the 'common' ones used such as heavy cruisers, some dreadnaughts, light cruisers and one or two frigates so far. I think I've only done the one carrier above. And all of them have received our house rules modifications. I know that one of the concerns from ADB was that they would be confused with official SSD's. However, I see that as a very remote possibility. For one, I've listed the modifications in several places on the board, including where the SSD's are shown. Secondly, for the SSD's to make any sense, a person would have to have the rules. And the official SSD's (common ones) come with the rules.

At any point, I told Jean I'd be happy to clearly label any SSD's I do in the future as something along the lines of IKV Avenger Modifications or some such thing.

I don't know if it would go anywhere, but she told me that I'm welcome to submit updated SSD's for the tourny ships. Whether SVC/SPP/ADB would have any interest in the project remains to be seen. For my part, I think it would be nice to at least have a choice between an updated or 'old style' SSD when at a tournament. And I stand firm that an attractive SSD will have a better 'curb appeal' to potential new players. And let's be honest, SFB needs new players everywhere. I've seen to many 'I use to play but can't find any one interested'.

Just my opinion.

Any tourny SSD's I did would be box-for-box so that nothing is different or changed from the official. Just an updated appearance as a whole on the SSD. I'll be happy to report back if there is any interest from ADB and/or progress.

Who knows...maybe at C5N's we can have optional SSD's for anyone wanting to use them, either that or my bubble gets burst ;)

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser



...The Antares Class, referred to (with a planned, but unbuilt model, for) TOS, and shown in DS9.



My Conversion of the Royal Sovereign Class, from the TNG Officers' Manual, fairly straightforward conversion, with the tech level being 2Xs, as usual, feedback being fairly appreciated.


330 BPV for a freighter?!?!

What is A2R meant to be? AWR?

more questions

What do the refits do? They're listed in the ship data table, but there's nothing on the SSD to indicate what they change.
Why would it have a Y175 refit when there are no drone racks?
Why would it have an AWR refit when it has no APR to convert? Does it convert the labs? All of them? If not, how many?
Why would it have AWR when it has no photon torpedoes?
I notice prior to Y140 it has armor. Are the (rather impressive) shields reduced before that year?


The Royal Soveriegn has 360 photons? Since when is that possible?

I'm taking a guess that what

I'm taking a guess that what he means by 'A2R' is that it is an AWR where each box yields 2 points of power, rather than the normal one per. This double output is nice until it receives damage and you lose both points with one hit. Around the web I've seen this with a lot of X2 ship offerings. Similar to having an APR or AWR box with a number inside to represent how much power it produces.

I've used this occasionally. I've also used ABR which I believe Don Miller developed. It is an APR but also doubles as a battery. So one ABR box produces one point of power per turn as a normal APR, and it also holds one point of power as per a battery that can be recharged.

Both systems offer a nice way to up the power on X1 and X2 ships while not cluttering up the SSD with proportionately more boxes.

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

What happened to Elvis

Did he follow his namesake to a nasty end on a toilet?

I miss his posts.

I particularly liked the bit where "SVC said its true so it must be true".

In other news, I think the Feds got royally shafted with the cost of those Antares freighters !!


The Antares freighter is obviously the futuristic analogue of the "cigarette boats" used by drug runners to transport their goods into Florida at high speed. A high performance ship to go with a high risk, high value cargo.

24 warp boxes on a ship with 64 cargo boxes; it can probably outrun the "fast" warships!

Makes perfect sense to me...

Good job Mr Archon!

Uh, ahoy mateys...

...Here I am, It's me; and I'm here to answer your questions.

...1st: It's intended to be a fairly standard Conversion from FASA to SFB (Both cases), and in the case of the Royal Sovereign, I was working to put an accurate array/number of weapons/what the ship had/put a smaller number of weapons into the hull, to fit into the SSD, hence, the 360o photons.

...And the Fasa to SFB conversion, and/or a different standard of boxes, Is why I and Don Miller, sometimes create weird SSDs like the Antares, the 16-point warp engines of the Fasa stats, became 12-box warp engines, And the 2 FH-5s became 2 Ph-1s (probably should be Ph-2s.) and the Two Crew units of the SSD, well that was from the show, the Antares-Class actually had that much, so that's another reason. Also, your "cigarette boat" analogy wasn't EXACTLY true, but it's still fairly decent, as a bit o' reasoning/concept.

....Also, some parts of it come from laziness (the faux/ghost Refit thing,(...)), and it doesn't have shields before Y140 (Late 2240s; , 2248,; 2249), due to late choice of refits in priority, and some come from a Fairly decent need for some better systems, nothing photon-specific.

...Another one SSD (...Or few.) is coming up, hopefully later tonight. so, stay tuned!


I got the BPV Wrong, because I was drunk at the time; it's actually 130, or something.

,...And here's...

...And here's an older Excelsior SSD, using a combination of the Custom Ship Design System/FASA Conversion.


...How Is this ship, guys? especially since the Crew Units is from the back of a Micro Machines package.



...An SSD of the Heston, from FASA;s FYW Manual, and fan texts, it's cool to see such a recognizable ship in SSD Form, do any of you see anything, quite likr that, in your travels on the internet?


My antivirus software won't let me open that last one. May want to scan it.

hmmm, could be overreactive,

hmmm, could be overreactive, just like my antivirus and Firefox did and almost closed down a few innocent websites.

...if You still need to see them some other way, I'll post up the stats, in text form later tonight.

okay, here's the full stats,

okay, here's the full stats, and some backstory, and some outline, for those of you who don't necessarily know;
The Heston Class was some fanship from the 80s', created by some fans, who essentially tried to tie it into the design tree, by making it s two-nacelled version of the Federation dreadnought from Franz Joseph, and to stat it up, I used a standard FJ Federation DN (Maybe improved) outline, with some changes, which will pop up, as follows in the SSD stats below:

Brdg: 2
Flag: 2
Aux: 2
Emer: 2
prb: 2
Lab: 10
Tran: 4
Trac: 3
F hull: 16
A hull: 6
shtl: 8
L Warp: 15
R Warp: 15
Imp: 3
AWR: 2
Btty: 7
Ph-1: 2-FH, 3-LS, 3 RS, 2-360o, 2-RA
Phtn: 6-FA
Drn-G: 1-2 racks on the refit only, with t he Apr-AWR Refit also happening relatively undisplaced, no things actually out of the orfinary, there."
Shields: 36-30-30-32
Sensor: 6-6-5-4-2-0
Scanner: 0-0-1-3-5-9
Damcon: 6-6-5-4-3-2-0
Exedam: 8

CW: 52
Brdparties: 14

T-bombs: the same/, 6 regular, 6 "pseudo".

Anyway, I also left a shipkit-graphic 2100-Registry (maybe-oops!) heston graphic, nd that's it, any comments, suggestions, opinions, feedback, questions, from the audience? You!? (making me sound like Anonymous, right over there...)! .

Miranda Class Light Cruiser SSD


The regular one with the rollbar.


...The rollbar-less freighter, like the Lantree.


...And the Saratoga, from Emissary.

...and here's, a new Fast Cruiser variant of the Heston,...

"...with "Fast priority command", capabilities! ,...Intended, to be an intricate, subtle ("very") blend of unique!


And now...

...here's, a new ship, one of my best, a close friend of mine, and a great performer, a ship which I demonstrated my growth in, and continued to practice in, ship designing, combining function, with it's place in the Eta Timeline (the Star Trek universe I use for comedy), unique, & difference of appearence, and many successful missions, make it a fairly prominent part of that Trek universe's fleet.

...And now, here:


...In it's TOS Incarnation. Normal. It has closely followed it's intended function well: as a fleet combat vessel, that carries supplies, (including spare shuttles, even!), as well as become the only od my TOS vessels, to survive into a refitted TMP era form, with picture and SSD coming up; soon, there'.

Early Carlin Class

"...This, like the other Carlins, was a conversion from older FASA Stats, by me, Meteo, and it was a straight, narrow, and "laser-sharp", accurate depiction, taking the older FASA stats, and bringing a new "FAC-1" and Laser (LS) systems, to SFB, demonstrating how accurate I am with my conversions, as well as use my design skills to create a vessel that is powerful, and fit's it's role/multiple roles for regular gameplay, across C-S-M array scenarios, there'.


Smiley's old stuff from http://www.smileylich.com/sfb/

Smiley's old stuff from http://www.smileylich.com/sfb/


This is from the year 2007 or 2008. But at least it is something...



The Legend Class, from Star Trek: the Final Dimension.

The 6Xs, 26th Century period of Star Trek, like Don Miller's Galaxy and Sovereign Classes, in a Non-Megabox SSD,

Data for the Legend Class:

Explosion Strength: 1,696
BPV: 25,000,000
Movement Cost: 7
Shield Cost: 3+9
Cloaking Device Cost: 260

Just as an update, it has

Just as an update, it has been about a year and I've never received any indication from ADB that they would have interest in updating tournament ships to a newer design. No problem.

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

Dreadnought Class

...This is a Dreadnought, from some old ASCII Art, the first created in 1994, later versions created, revised throughout 1995-1996.

It's a TNG Era Dreadnought, with lots of advanced systems, because Quantum Torpedoes were new at the time, the creator probably hadn't heard of them, so he didn't include them, just some other, made-up torpedo types, as well as railguns, fighters, and three sets of shield generators, like in "Dreadnought!" Non-Megabox version will probably be included later.



The Saber class, done up with 3-point (4-point for 4Xe refit) Allowance Ph-TNGs, and VWarp producing 3 power ea.


What If?

This is some ""What If? of a Fan's take on the Excelsior, supposedly made around late 80s'-early 90s'.


Brdg: 2
Flag: 2
Aux: 1
Emer: 2
Prb: 2
Lab: 10
Tran: 4
Trac: 2
F Hull: 14
A Hull: 8
Cargo: 6
Hold: 6
Shtl: 8
Warp: 2x 20
Imp: 6
A2R: 4
Btty: 14
Ph-1: 2-FH, 2-FA+L, 2 FA+R, 2-LS, 2-RS, 2-RH
Mega-Phtn: 1-FA, 2-FA+L, 2-FA+R, 1-RA

Shields: 36/28/28/24/24/24

Sensor: 6/6/5/4/2/0
Scanner: 0/0/1/3/5/9
Damcon: 6/6/4/4/2/2/0
ExcDam: 7

Move Cost: 1
Turn Mode: D

What If? II


Brdg: 2
Flag: 2
Aux: 2
Emer: 2
Prb: 2
Lab: 12
Tran: 5
Trac: 2
F Hull: 16
A Hull: 8
Cargo: 8
Hold: 8
Shtl: 10
Warp: 2x 24
Imp: 6
A2R: 4
Btty: 16
Ph-1: 2-FH, 2-FA+L, 2 FA+R, 2-LS, 2-RS, 2-RH
Ph-3: 2-LS, 2-RS, 2-RH
Mega-Phtn: 6-FX, 1-RA

Shields: 45/38/38/36/36/36 (60/45/45/42/42/42)

Sensor: 6/6/6/6/5/4/3/2/1/0
Scanner: 0/0/0/0/1/3/3/5/5/9
Damcon: 6/6/6/6/4/4/2/2/0
ExcDam: 12

Move Cost: 1.5
Turn Mode: E

What If? III

More Versions of the Galaxy Class, - one speculated late 80s'-early 90s' fan stats, 1 a conversion of the TNG Officer's Manual to Standard Scale.

Brdg: 3
Flag: 2
Aux: 2
Emer: 2
Prb: 2
Sen: 2
Lab: 14
Tran: 6
Trac: 3
F Hull: 22
C Hull: 16
A Hull: 12
Cargo: 12
Hold: 12
Shtl: 12
Warp: 2x 30
Imp: 12
A2R: 7
Btty: 16
Ph-M: 5-FX
Ph-1: 3-FH, 2-LS, 2-RS, 2-RH, 4-360o Arc
Ph-3: 2-LS, 2-RS, 6-RA, 2-360o Arc
Mega-Phtn: 10 FA+RA

Shields: 68/45/45/45/45/45 (96/60/60/60/60/60)

Sensor: 6/6/6/6/5/5/4/4/3/2/1/0
Scanner: 0/0/0/0/1/3/3/3/5/5/9/9/9/9
Damcon: 8/8/8/8/8/8/6/6/4/4/4/4/2/2/0/0
ExcDam: 14

Move Cost: 2
Turn Mode: G

Brdg: 4
Flag: 2
Batl: 1
Nav: 1
Aux: 2
Emer: 2
Prb: 4
Sen: 4
Lab: 12
Tran: 15
Trac: 4
F Hull: 60
A Hull: 15
Cargo: 14
Hold: 14
Shtl: 22
Warp: 2x 30, 1x 12
Imp: 18
A2R: 8
Btty: 24
Ph-5: 8-FX
Ph-1: 4-FH, 4-FA+L, 4-FA+R, 4-RA
Mega-Phtn: 8-FX, 4-LS, 4-RS, 4-RA

Shields: 48/42/42/36/36/30

Sensor: 6/6/6/6/6/6/5/4/2/0
Scanner: 0/0/0/0/1/3/3/5/5/9
Damcon: 8/8/6/6/4/4/4/2/2/0
ExcDam: 26

Move Cost: 1.75
Turn Mode: E

These don't seem to far off

These don't seem to far off except the number of Hull in the first one. The saucer is just too huge and more in line with the second one. Especially is you think of all the rooms they need for families.

Another Galaxy Class

My Take on it, in Standard SFB Scale, fully converted.

Brdg: 6
Flag: 4
Batl: 4
Aux: 4
Emer: 4
Prb: 4
Sen: 4
Lab: 16
Tran: 10
Trac: 3
F Hull: 48
C Hull: 30
A Hull: 12
Cargo: 16
Hold: 16
Shtl: 26
Warp Booster Pack: 2x 4
Warp: 2x 45
Imp: 12
Emer Imp: 8
A3R: 20
Btty: 20
Ph-TNG: 5-FX, 3-FX (Concealed), 2-LS, 2-RS, 3 360o arc, 6-RA
Mega-Phtn: 10-FA+RA, 10-RA (concealed)

Shields: 90/90/90/90/90/90 (100/100/100/100/100/100)

Sensor: 6/6/6/6/6/6/6/6/5/5/5/5/4/2/0
Scanner: 0/0/0/0/1/1/3/3/3/5/5/5/9/9/9/9
Damcon: 8/8/8/8/6/6/6/6/5/4/4/2/2/0
ExcDam: 20

Move Cost: 1.75
Turn Mode: E

Enterprise Class


SSD of the Enterprise Class, from TMP.

1X Era.

The Box just to the back of the Bridge, is from TMP, an Airlock that allows a small Size 5/6 craft to dock.

Four of the Stardrive Phasers are 360o, and other 2 are aft, which even Interplay gave to their 0Xl TMP ships in SFCII and SFCII Orion Pirates.

Galaxy Class SSD

The finished Galaxy Class SSD.

TNG Phasers, or "Ph-TNGs", have 1 point of Allowance per Tech Level, spend number of points between connected boxes to get the following:

1: Ph-0, Ph-3
2: Ph-2, Ph-6
3: Ph-1
4: Ph-5
5: Ph-4, Ph-M
10: Ph-H


A "normal scale" SSD, with 10-point Photons that have an Overload Range of 12, and special TNG Shuttles, Type-15 Shuttlepods (4-box, 2 Ph-3s), Type-6 Shuttlecraft (6-box, 2 Ph-3s), Type-7 Shuttlecraft (8-box, 2 Ph-6s), two Shuttlepods can take up 1 Shuttle Box, 1 Runabout or MRS can take up 2 Shuttle Boxes.

Grimace's Shipyard Experiment #1

...Here is a Ship I made with GrimacePCH1997's Ship Construction System, a War Destroyer, with 1X Systems, and some clean, intricate aesthetics, that I've gotten good at over the years.

Next, will come a new 2Xe Heavy Cruiser, made in the style of Supplement #2.

I'd love to look, but...

For some strange reason I can't get signed on to that site. Everything I try also results in no access.

Any way you can put them up on some other location where I can view it? I'm quite interested.

Still wants me to sign on to

Still wants me to sign on to the STSTCOLDA

What, just by looking?

What, just by looking?

Love the XCEG

Outside of the forward PH/Lab merge it looks real nice. Even if you take it out the X time and give it PH-1s. This would be a kick'n ship.

To get rid of the PH/Lab mess, you could move the forward photon black A and F up half a square. The do it to PH #1 and #4. The could give it enough seperation from the Labs.

Yay! I can see!

Thanks for those links...I can finally see!

As was suggested, the Phaser/Lab layout on the first ship is a bit confusing. More space between them would work wonders.

On the second ship, it looks like you need to make the ship outline a bit bigger overall. Not only do your impulse engines extend outside the saucer section in a bad way, but your fighters in the aft shuttle bay are hanging out in outer space.
Also, I'm wondering about a X- "heavy carrier" that only carries 4 fighters.
Additionally, what is A2R in the saucer section up to the left of the 4 photons?

The Noel....pretty ship and hefty price tag! But with the weaponry and add-ons that it has, the price makes sense.

Response to some interesting meat...

Good, and interesting, and (coincidentally) convieniently, the only non-accurate part of that, is in the last part. I put in the last one for some weird different feature/artwork thing (the Fighters), and it's there; ...essentially just for the unusually illusive concepts.

A2Rs, like many systems, are what Don Miller and other people come up with, a: to use different functions, and b: to explore different stuff, with some occasional building and constructing based upon needs, sometimes ones that arise soon after some occasionally energetic events have passed, and needing something that could be unintentionally freakishly awesome, far beyond it's humble beginnings.

...And, the other stuff is occasionally aesthetic, going to the "looks good from one certain angle" sort of way, for the Phasers and Labs, good occasionally, but not more than an occasional glimmer.

...Occasionally, a few "fairly standard" features of 2X make it in, there.

...Noel had a special designator, that's where the designator ended up at "Noel", and the Class Name was different. Another weird thing done as a weird-ish showcasing, and go ahead and photomanipulate it, I will unveil my next tremendous project (out of like, umpteen), and it will be more outlined, occasionally.

One of the most interesting

One of the most interesting new systems was the A2BR and/or the A2WBR. The first was a 2 point APR and a 1 point battery, the second a 2 point AWR and 1 point battery. Excellent to consolidate functions and add a 2X flare (or even juice up a 1X+).

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

A little Present for you, Grimace!


Here is an experiment with 2Xe, Destroyer, lop-sided; feel free to use it, take and modify it, anything, it also has BPV of 224, Movement Cost = 0.67, Turn Mode of B, Shield and Life Support Costs of 1, 1, and AUUUGH. So, take a look at it & a try at it.


Don't know much about X ships

Meteo, what does EREC and STCART stand for? And... Why so many Labs on a Destroyer?

A from A #1

EREC was what Don Miller did on his July 2001 SSD, and one of my favorites: the Babcock; it's Educational Comedy that turns a Crew Unit into an Outstanding Crew Unit.

...And STCART has Four Map/Lab/Sensor effects; I'll probably get the SSD up, to show you more of a Reference about it.

The Labs are there, because, occasional anomalies in the Design/Designers, and it's a Federation ship.

Really Wierd S***, #1

Hawkeye Class Long Range Tactical Scout

Brdg: 4
Aux: 2
Emer: 2
Prb: 2
Lab: 8
Tran: 4
Trac: 4
Hull: 12X C
Cargo: 2
Hold: 2
Shtl: 8
Warp: 2x 28
Imp: 8
A4VR: 6
Btty: 4
Ph-TNG: 8-FX, 4-RX
Quantum: 4-FX
Sensor: 6/6/6/6/6/6/5/5/4/3/2/1/0/0
Scanner: 0/0/0/0/1/3/3/5/6/6/8/8/9/9
Damcon: 8/8/8/8/8/8/6/6/4/4/2/2/0/0
Excdam: 8

Shields: 56/56/56/56/56/56

Move Cost: .67
Turn Mode: B


That's a crazy ship. I don't quite understand the inclusion of everything. Why in the world does it have 16 deck crews when it only has 4 shuttles and no fighters?

Armor and lab coming out the gills on that thing!

An interesting ship, to be sure, but at 224 I think it'll only come out in rare and very specific missions.

Neat design though!

A explanation...

It is an optional thing, probably having to do with the Dominion War, and it used a bunch of visual measurements and Standard SFB Layout things.

It made for an interesting thing, and you can find it at the Blueprint Database, it's a TNG-Era vessel with an 'Arrowhead' section and long dippping, curling tendril of art project.

...And, I thought that the BPV was a bit low, Actually.

Here's two interesting ideas...

Here's some ideas people had from the First Age of the Internet, on USENET, and some old SFB websites.

One, was to use a Supplement #2 XCC for the Galaxy Class, for a scenario against Gavin Joth's Borg Cube SSD. The same scenario also called for CXs' to be used for Ambassadors, DNPs for Ent-B/Lakota vessels, DNGs for Excelsiors, CCs for Enterprises, CAs for Constitutions, NCAs for Constellations, NCLs for Mirandas, DWs and FFs for other ships.

The second idea, was to take the XCC, and multiply everything by 2, seen here:

BPV = 600 (650 for XCC)
Shield Cost = 1+2
Life Support = 1
Move Cost = 1
Turn Mode = D
Breakdown = 6
Size Class = 1

Brdg: 8
Aux: 4
Emer: 4
Probe: 4 (exchange for Special Sensors)
Lab: 16
Tran: 14
Trac: 4
Hull: 28x F, 8x A
Shtl: 12
Cargo: 12
Hold: 12
Warp: 2x 40, 1x 4
Imp: 4
Btty: 10
Ph-1: 8-FH, 8 LF-L, 8 RF-R, 8 360o arc
Phtn: 8-FA
Shields: 96/84/72/60
Sensor: 6/6/6/6/5/5/4/4/3/3/2/0
Scanner: 0/0/0/0/1/2/3/3/5/5/9/9
Damcon: 8/8/8/8/6/6/4/4/4/2/2/0
Excdam: 12

Crew Units: 120
Boarding Parties: 60

Applied Refit

Refit using the 1X Conversion Rules, and some of my own things, eyeballing and doodling.