Avenger's modifications

I have pretty much finalized (with input from my group) our modifications for regular era races. I'd like to list them in this thread, starting with the Feds and using the CA class as a starting reference point.

I have modified the SSD's of all the races CA's so far to better reflect what the actual ships look like. For example, rather than the normal Fed CA which is a circle and three rectangles, I use the actual outline of the Federation heavy cruiser. This way you see the main saucer, secondary hull, warp nacells and the supports for the warp engines. If anyone is interested in seeing any of the races CA's I'd be happy to email them to you.

Fed CA:

Power = 38 (30 warp, 4 impulse, 4 AWR)
8xph-1 (2 FH, 2 LF/L & 2 RF/R, 2 360's)
2xph-3 (360's)
1 x 12 shot ASW (Anti Seeking Weapon)
5 batteries
4 shuttles

SSD includes shaded headers for each data box and includes a weapons data box for phasers, photons and ASW. Also included is a ship diagram of top/bottom/side/front/back.

I wanted to provide an attractive SSD that just has a better 'feel' to it for the players. Again, if anyone would like to see it I'd be happy to email it. :)

I will continue the thread with the other races.

I'd be interested

I think you still have my email...

Shot you an email with the

Shot you an email with the first five (Fed, Klink, Rom, Hydran & Kzin). Hope you like them.

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

Klingon D7:Power = 39 (30

Klingon D7:
Power = 39 (30 warp, 5 impulse, 4 APR)
Batteries = 5
4xPh-1 (3 boom, 2 wing standard special arcs)
4xph-2 (2 each side waist)
2xph-3 (wings)
4 x disruptor (nacelles)
2xdrone
1xADD

Romulan:
Power = 38 (30 warp, 6 impulse, 2 APR)
Batteries = 6
1 x Type R FA
2 x Type F LP/RP (nacelles)
1 x Type D rack FX
4 X ph-1
4 x ph-3

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

Yes, please!

Leslie Richardson at isunet dot net

The Rom sounds interesting ... much more racial flavour than the others Rom variants

SSD's sent. Let me know how

SSD's sent. Let me know how you like them :)

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

Nada

Weird.

Try LeslieMRichardson at gmail

Ok, sent again. Let me know

Ok, sent again. Let me know if they came through. Should be two emails with 5 attachments in one and 3 in the other.

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

I know that Grimace received

I know that Grimace received the SSD's, did you Leslie?

I'd like to see what you both think :)

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

I'd like to look

Send to Buddhaduder @ yahoo.

Two emails sent this morning

Two emails sent this morning (5 in the first, 3 in the second).

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

I'd like to see these as

I'd like to see these as well, if I might.

jason dot standlea at g mail dotcom

Jason, Two emails sent to you

Jason,

Two emails sent to you :)

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

So many Jasons...

And I like it !

Kzinti: Power = 34 (30 warp,

Kzinti:
Power = 34 (30 warp, 4 impulse, 0 APR)
Batteries = 4
4 x Hyperdrones LF/L, RF/R
4 x Drone racks (2 type B [4xI/2xIV], 2 type C [4xI])
4 X ph-1
8 x ph-3D
1 x ADD

HD requires no energy, operates as per normal HD rules except it requires 4pts to destroy rather than 6pts.

Lyran:
Power = 39 (30 warp, 3 impulse, 6 APR)
Batteries = 4
4 x Particle Cannon FA/L, FA/R
2 x ESG
4 X ph-1
2 x ph-2
2 x ph-3

PC has a cap that holds up to 5pts of power. Requires 1/2 present total of cap to hold i.e. if cap has 4pts at the start of the turn it requires 2pts in EA to hold. 2pts to fire standard first time, 1 pt for second standard shot of turn. OL requires 3pts regardless of when shot in the turn. 12 impulse delay.

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

Seriously?

The Kzinti, with 4 Hyperdrones, is going to force a weasel. I don't know of any other way the opponent can deal with three waves in one turn (per the other discussion).

I don't feel very good about that. With speed 32 regular drones, that would be 8 from T1 (SP + 2 from racks), plus 4 hyperdrones; followed on T2 by another 8 hyperdrones, 6 from the racks, and potentially another SP (6). So, T2, either 14 or 20 regular drones (which can easily include the 2-IVs), 12 Hyperdrones. A total of 26 or 32 drones to deal with. None of the comparable ships has that number of phasers/tractors to deal with the deluge.

I played the Flivver when it first came out. And stomped every one of my opponents. Hyperdrones are a nice idea, but generally broken.

I like most of your other changes. The D-rack on the Rom, the ADD on the Kzinti, great! The outlines are nice.
But I see the Kzinti as a near one-trick pony, and that trick stops opponents and forces them to use weasels.

You address some valid

You address some valid concerns. I'll offer some things for consideration. First, the Flivver have the hover-warp, the HD armed Kzinti do not. They therefore have to content with the normal firing arcs of the disruptors they are replacing. What this means is that, while three waves of HD's is a good strategy to pursue for an HD armed Kzinti, it isn't an easy thing to accomplish all the time. I 'may' be easier to get three partial waves, but three full waves takes excellent timing as well as proper positioning. Considering the target ship usually isn't willing to provide either, and considering that the Kzin has to content with whatever the target ships plans are, three full waves just isn't a gimmie. It is kinda like the Gorn anchor; it's a great tactic but isn't easy to do all the time.

We've also lowered the damage to destroy a HD to 4pts rather than 6pts. This is in line with a standard type I of which they are suppose to be the same size. 6pts is just too much. By lowering it to 4pts we see that the first wave is generally fairly easy to overcome, although at the cost of phaser fire. This means that a successful second wave needs to be utilized, and again even with only an 8-impulse delay between shots, it isn't always easy to do as the game unfolds. This has tended to balance the HD out against other DF weapons that may or may not miss.

Another consideration is the HD can't be overloaded.

As to the regular drones, one is going to have to contend with those from a Kzin regardless of what it's primary weapon is and WW is a standard defense for those drone stacks.

So far, in our playtesting the HD armed Kzin is a strong ship, particularly in the cruiser class but not overwhelming. I've beaten it and lost to it about equally using different ships. It is a finesse ship that requires (as mentioned above) timing and position which a lot of our group likes.

:)

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

your math is off

In a cruiser duel, you will never be facing 14-20 drones in a wave, simply because the Kzinti only has single drone control on most of its cruisers (the TC is the exception here, not the rule) and even if it has double you're facing 12 at the most. ATG is fairly cheap, but not unlimited, so you can't even use that as an excuse.

Thank you, I meant to mention

Thank you, I meant to mention that in my last post but it was late and I forgot. Yes, his math is a bit off on the amount of drones that could possibly be in play at any given time. And HD's can't be counted as WW's aren't really a viable defense unless already out...and then why would HD's be fired if it is?

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

Balance?

If you're finding them to be unbalanced, one thing you could do would be to a) require HDs to use a seeking weapon control slot and b) give all Kzinti double drone control.
That would limit how many you could have out at once, make you think more about when to fill up your control channels, etc.

Now that is a very

Now that is a very interesting suggestion. That would particularly add to the issue of properly timing an attack. If an advantageous opportunity arises for an HD strike that would be effective, tracking can always be dropped to drones in-flight if necessary. And of course, as a drone hits or is destroyed it clears a channel for another launch if possible/practical.

Very interesting, I'm going to have to try this in the next game and see how it plays. Thank you.

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

And

1. Arcs. not quite the same as the Disruptors they're replacing. You've got them listed as LF+L/RF+R, rather than the FA+L/FA+R the current Kzinti has.
2. Arcs, 2. Yes, it's difficult to get everything in arc. At the same time, without any real demands for energy, the Kzinti can always finish a turn speed 31.
3. Drones in flight. Saaur, at no point did I say '14-20 drones in a wave'. I was keeping the within the 12 drone limit of the Kzinti TC at all times, but may not have explained it well enough.

T1, one SP is 6, 2 more from the racks is 8. I was working under the assumption the HDs required control channels, hence using a max of 8 normal drones in flight.
T2, let the drones go in first. The opponent has to immediately deal with the 4 i32 HDs. Then there's 8 drones incoming. Two more salvos of 4 HDs each can be launched. That means the opponent has to deal with 12 HDs, in one turn, with no real options except phasers.
The question then becomes, how does the opponent deal with the 8 incoming normals? Are any of them fast? Is flying around them an option? High speed and no phasers left is not the way to get on top of the Kzinti. After the T2 HD salvos, the Kat still has four open channels. And, as mentioned before, plenty of discretionary energy. Lob one drone from each rack that the opponent must deal with. Close and tractor. Use the C racks for another two drones. And, tractored, the opponent can't escape the 8 T1 drones. High speed to close also means less energy for tractors, while the Kzinti is happily strolling in at a much slower speed behind the first 'wave' of drones.

One other thought had occurred to me ... might as well launch one flight of HDs before i24, force the opponent to spend some energy recharging phasers T2.

The only way I can see to avoid this kind of insanity is weaseling. (Probably T2i1) I can't think of any other combination where one can absolutely force the opponent into a (non-)choice like this - not web, not an incoming plasma stack.

Facing an opponent with superior turn mode, who ends T1 at 31 as well, the numbers drop by exactly two HDs to deal with on T2, using the LF+L/RF+R arcs. That's a difference - only dealing with 6 HDs T2 rather than 8 - but not that significant a difference.

Keep in mind there are other

Keep in mind there are other ways to deal with drones. Individually they can be tractored. In waves, one can always use a T-bomb. Other drones and ADD's as well as ESG's. It does force the target ship to do 'something' but that is the point. I do like Saaur's suggestion of the HD using a channel. It doesn't prevent the possibility of three full HD waves (if possible to set up), but it would give the target ship slightly more options on the number of drones in the incoming waves.

Of course, a smart Kzin is going to stagger his drone waves to prevent a whole stack from being taken out at one time...

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

ISC CL: Keep in mind that

ISC CL: Keep in mind that the ISC vessels above the DD class are usually a class superior to other races. The CL is about equal to the other races CA's.

Power = 34 (24 warp, 4 impulse, 6 APR) (2/3 movement)
6xph-1 (2xFA/L, 2xFA/R, 2 360's)
4xph-3 (2xLS, 2xRS)
2xPPD (which can be down loaded to a PPC [Plasmatic Pulsar Carbine])
4xPl-F (L/LR and/or R/RR)
5 batteries
4 shuttles

The PPC is a 2/2 cost to arm and uses a different table for damage. The PPC replaces the forward plasma launchers on the larger class vessels. For example, the ISC CA has;

2xPPD
1xPPC

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

We have decided to make an

We have decided to make an adjustment in the Lyran's Particle Cannon to see how it works. The PC cap no longer requires 1/2 the current total of the cap in EA to hold. It will be as the ESG (or phaser cap) and no hold is necessary.

Going to see how it plays overall.

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

no-hold PC cap

The Lyran will need playtesting for power balance. I know such a change to the Seltorian would make it a KILLER in the tournament because of the power curve. Heavy weapons that hold for free can be frightening in large numbers (drones, web fists). Heavy weapons that hold for free and can overload on a moment's notice? Scary.
For X-tech PCs I believe this makes sense, but doing it in GW time... Like I said, you could very well be right but it'll need extensive testing.

I agree, we're going to try a

I agree, we're going to try a game later today and see how it works out for starters. Planning on using CA's. The way we're looking at it is that a 'standard' Lyran with disruptors will charge up with either 2 or 4 points each. And then we have the ESG's to power up as well. The PC will cost 2 points for a standard shot (first one of the turn) so that is in line with a standard disruptor. A second standard shot only costs 1 point but as many have pointed out, with a 12 impulse delay it isn't always going to happen. Now an PC OL cost only 3 as opposed to 4 on the disruptor so it has a bit of advantage there, BUT the PC doesn't have the UIM either so a R8 shot is 1-3 rather than 1-5 so it evens itself out a bit on that.

Now comparing them both (Dis Lyran and PC Lyran), by making the PC Cap a no-hold, it is just about the same overall as far as charging stuff back up on subsequent turns. By having the PC require a 1/2 point charge per point of power to hold it can really start to add up in addition to normal charging and of course the ESG. The
'thought is that by allowing a no-hold cost it will even itself out overall with the less effective to-hit. We'll see if that 'thought' holds water hopefully starting today.

One thought we have from the game we had on Sunday (Klingon D7 & Fed CA vs. Kzinit CA and Hydran Dragoon) is that the Kzinit HD might need to be tweaked a bit more. Currently, per normal HD rules, if the HD gets hit it isn't destroyed. Rather just one magazine is destroyed. Since each HD has three magazines it really means that a HW hit is fairly meaningless against a Kzinti as they can still keep firing. For a CA with 4xHW that means you'd have to get 12 HW hits to take them out whereas other races become toothless after 4 HW hits. In Sunday's game the Kzinti was crippled but could still pop off all of its HD's. Might just have to make it one hit-onne kill like other HW's....

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

Lyran CA fell to the Kzinti

Lyran CA fell to the Kzinti CA, but it was fairly close and bad die rolling on my part was the deciding factor. I'd like to get some more test games in on this one and see how it goes.

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser

One-hit kill HD

I think you're right to change the HD to one-hit kills. You might leave it with 2 or 3 magazines, and have a hit kill the launcher and the contents of one magazine. So when it gets fixed there might still be some reloads present.

That's a good idea; hit

That's a good idea; hit kills the launcher and one magazine. If it is repaired the magazine is still off-line but the other mags are usable. If it gets hit again, same thing but now it only has one mag to use. Perhaps charge additional DC points to repair the mag itself after the launcher is repaired. We'll have to give that a shot (no pun intended) lol. It will definitely put it on a more even par with other HW's that get hit.

My other car is a D7 Battlecruiser