Fed G-Rack TCC?
Buried in the tournament description:
"We will allow the experimental G-Rack Federation TCC into our tournament."
What is this? Is there a SSD online?
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Tue, 07/28/2009 - 10:40 — The_Rock
Not Yet
Some things still need to be worked out/explained.
Eventually it will be easy as it is just adding an Drone-G box to the SSD. It does need to be decided what will/can go in it.
1. 2 Drones, 4 ADD
2. Any option the Fed wants (from 8 ADD, 0 drones to 0 ADD, 4 Drones)
Then, on the drones, can the Fed:
1. Use Type VIs?
2. Use Type IV?
So there are some details left out there, but the plan is to allow the Fed to have an G rack in some configuration.
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Tue, 07/28/2009 - 12:54 — RushAss
Fed G rack
I like option 1 with the 2 type 1 drones and 4 ADDs myself.
Here's a wacky thought - I knew I was going to take the Fed for months now (I basically fly 1 ship a year and this year is the year of the Fed) and I'm wondering if I can take the original Fed without the G rack. If I have to face another Fed, then we can either agree that both ships have the G rack or neither one does. I guess I've got an underdog thing going on lately. However if we really need data for play testing purposes, I'll *grudgingly* plop a G rack on my Fed.
Baseline of Discussion
Here is the official ruling from the Tournament Coordinator (more on that later).
There has been lots of debate about this on the ADB BBS. By my reading, the general consensus is/was that the way to go is a Limited G-Rack with the only load being 2 Type-I Speed 20 drones & 4 ADD rounds.
Please have all discussion assume this is the baseline, and what you should expect to see at Council, unless I am so persuaded by discussion here (or on the ADB BBS) that I feel compelled to make it something else.
Bakija, I think you were the leading voice for this. Please chime in. Is my memory serving me correctly?
-DC
p.s. Jeez, do you believe that Villa guy?!?... Asking for Gorn Carronades (sp?)! Talk about giving an inch and taking a mile...
:-)
The suggestion that was
The suggestion that was floated by me was a G-rack with 2xIM, 4xADD, no reloads, no changes in loadout.
G Rack
Yeah, Peter's idea of the 2 type 1s and 4 ADDs with no reloads or alterations sounds about right.
As for the corronade, perhaps a 1 shot corronade for each F torp? It would certainly add flavor to the ship without overpowering it IMO.
Corronade
Yeah, sure, might as well ask. I have to get while the gettin' is good. and..... who ever said the gorn with the corronade was overpowering? Do it!!!! Do it NOW!!! :)
G rack
I'm confused...
Paul, isn't it your position that the Fed is just fine the way it is and the issue is that it has a learning cliff?
If so, what is the Fed losing to get the G rack?
re: G-Rack load-out
First, I agree with having both a limited load-out and no reloads. (though am doubtful about this solution as a whole, nonetheless....)
However, I am concerned about the only allowed load-out being one that helps against the ships that the FED already is advantaged against (ORI, HYD) while not helping much against the ships the FED is weak against (Big Plasma).
In other words, I would like to see the FED have the opportunity to have Type VI drones, which can be of some use against cloaking opponents.
Idea 1: vs. BP only, replace up to 2 ADD with type VI drones [I'm not a huge fan of the opponent specific stuff, but it's an option]
Idea 2: Can replace 1 type 1 with 2 type VI drones [Still limits to 2 spaces of offensive weaponry, Sting-2's notwithstanding, but both allows for an anti-cloak loadout and allows for some minor "trickery" with drone launches]
Yes, it is.
This is not my suggestion. I actually think it is a mistake to give the Fed more because I think it is good enough as is. I doubt a 2+4 G-rack will change things too much, except against the Klink and GBS, but I still think it is more likely to cause, rather than alleviate balance issues.
I posted the suggestions others have provided. Nothing should be read into that relating to whether I think it is a good idea. It is a popular idea, and probably a bad one, in the upper NY area.
In all likelihood, I will take this Fed at Co5N because I think it is too good. It won't help you win a game where your dice sucked, but it will likely push a perfectly good, mid-to-high end TC squarely into the high-end.
Fed-Hydran
Andy you wuss. Grow a pair and overrun the fed.... you WILL win that exchange. :) (Fed advantaged my sweet patootie!)
However, giving the Fed a G rack does hurt my beloved Hydran. I am pretty sure I'm in the Paul camp that the Fed is balanced, just not much fun.
re: Fed-Hydran
LOL! No worries, Larry - it's actually my favorite match-up to play, but I've found that, in making an argument, if you base it off "conventional wisdom", people can focus on your argument, not that fact that you dare disagree with the masses :-)
I still fondly remember a game against a Fed in which he had to make 3 successful HETs to beat me :-)
re: G-Rack load-out
I'm not a fan of putting any offensive drones in it. I do sorta like the idea of some type VI's though.
Fed
The problem with the Fed is that it is fairly balanced overall (see Ace-v-Ace stats) but is unbalanced in nearly every individual matchup!! (poor vs opponents with seeking weapons, good vs direct fire ships)
Add a G-Rack and change the 360's to RH.
This would make the ship better vs seeking weapons and less effective vs direct fire opponents, therefore making the ship about as strong as it is now but more balanced in the individual match ups!
It's also a historical design (even more so than the current Fed)
-Jason G
The g-rack is a good idea
I definitely want to see the Fed get the g-rack, and why does the the rack have to be modified? Sheesh, give the player the ability to put all antidrones, or 6 standards, or 4 standards and a heavy. Let's see how it goes. I love all these people saying that it does not need the upgrade to be balanced, but then I would bet good money that the SAME people hardly EVER play the fed competitively because they know it's a dog. Yeah, yeah, sure it could jackpot, but that hardly ever happens. Those drone users, they love their edge and they wont give it up easily. I guess it's too much to ask if we make them have to waste firepower shooting down drones.
re: "Fed too weak"
People don't play the Fed because it is too luck dependent, not because it isn't a balanced ship. And, by luck dependent, I mean that it can win or lose a game more readily due to luck o' the dice than any other ship.
Give the Fed an unlimited G-rack and it would rule the tourney scene, hands down.
Several comments
1. A g-rack has 4 spaces - so you apparently want to give the Fed something more than a g-rack.
2. I have been very clear over the - well - decades why I don't play the Fed in tournaments and it has nothing to do with it being too weak. In any single game, The Fed is quite good. It is reasonably balanced against almost every other ship, though it has a few heavily advantaged fights and a few slightly disadvantaged to disadvantaged fights. It's biggest problem exists now only in limited form - the Online Single Elimination Tournaments.
Way back when, when the only Tournament I cared about (Origins) required seven consecutive victories and then the RATs came along and required six consecutive wins. Now Origins is Patrol - so only three consecutive victories are required (well, why even bother talking about Origins anymore after this year's Gold Hat "Saturday Patrol"). The largest f-t-f tournament (Co5N) is patrol and thus requires only two or three consecutive wins. The RATs these day generally require only five consecutive wins - though five consecutive wins is still a tall order.
The reason the Fed was "weak" in tournament play had everything to do with how easy it was to lose - even to an opponent against whom you would normally be considerably better and nothing to do with the actual balance of the ship in any one fight. As a result of being so dependent on dice, the Fed was simply not a viable option in a multi-round single elimination tournament.
3. The inclusion of the g-rack likely "over balances" the Fed, thus I will be taking it at Co5N. People usually ignore me or argue the point when I make such a claim. Heck, in 2002, the crowd mostly chuckled at me as if I was joking when I responded "a 2-Gatt, 2-P-1 WAX" to the question of "what is the next broken ship you are going to fly. So far I am at 100%. I'll be right about the Fed too, it's just that the randomness of the Photon may hide it.
Well, maybe not 100%
Remember the Hydran and the new set of fighter tactics. *poke, poke*
Ken
Here's my take on the current status of the Fed TCC.
Here's my take on the current status of the Fed TCC.
When I first started playing tourney SFB in the early 90's, the Fed was seen as a solid ship. Some even viewed it as scary. Over the years, many things have weakened it. Basically, new ships where added that are tough opponents for the Fed and many ships that the Fed was advantaged against got improved. There where a few things that helped the Fed as well. A few ships where introduced that are favorable match ups for the Fed and one ship that where poor match ups for the Fed where downgraded. Let's have a look.
Good things for the Fed
So far so good. The above look promising, but keep in mind that none of the favorable match ups for the Fed added above are considered to be walkovers for the Fed except for maybe the LDR.
Bad things for the Fed
In my mind, the negatives outweigh the positives. Now the addition of the G rack does not help much against all opponents, but even having it pad a phaser on DAC rolls of 3 is super helpful for a ship that really needs to preserve it's phasers. And the 1 dinky drone that the Fed could launch against an uncloaking, weaseling opponent may at least net some collateral damage or something. Or save the Fed from having to waste phaser shots to kill the shameful thing. If the G rack moves the Fed into the top tier of TCs, I'm cool with it. The Fed is the signature ship of the game. New players want to play the Enterprise and many of them are discouraged when they discover that it's only mediocre. Better that it be a bit too strong than too weak. Sure the photons are a luck based problem, but there's not much that can be done about that. They hurt and help the Fed equally. The other main issue the Fed has is it's lack of tertiary weapons and the vulnerability of it's weapons to internal damage. The G rack solves that. And to state it again, I'm in favor of the permanent 2 X type IM, 4 X ADD loadout.
I never said it was too good
and neither was the Orion.
G-Rack Fed on SFBOL in one week
Good news!
I just received an email from Paul Franz this morning. He says the playtest G-Rack Fed will be available on SFBOL within the week.
If you see the update announced before I do, please let us know here.
Thanks,
-DC
A G-Rack Game
I played my Gorn against a G-Rack Fed (2xIM, 4xADD). My opponent was playing the "Reckless and get lucky" strategy, and was completely average instead of lucky, so he lost:
T1: I go fast with an enveloper. He goes 17/24 and finishes his torps to full, no weasel held. I launch the enveloper and turn off. He charges it, eating it for full. I turn in, launch 50 more plasma. He sees he can only get to R6 or so without eating the 50, so he fires, does exactly average (48--18 internals hitting a couple power and a couple phasers) and HETs away. He fires his last two P1s for a couple more in, but hits nothing real vital. I chase him at 31, gain a couple hexes, and fire some phasers through his #3 on impulse 32, doing a few unimportant internals. He launches a IM at me on 32.
T2: I'm down a few power, so I rearm my batteries (used to go 31 for the last quarter of the turn instead of 16), my torps, and go as fast as I can, leaving my phaser capacitors mostly empty. He goes 31/17 and rearms some stuff (probably 3 torps at 2 each, his batteries, and some phaser power). He runs, I chase, tractoring his drone. Impulse 1, I have one more P1 to fire through his facing down shield, so I fire it and hit the drone rack (saving a phaser!). After he slows down, my plasma catches him and the real S torp hits for 22 minus some phaser damage. I fire some phasers (off battery) through the hole, hitting a photon. I close in, he turns in to avoid getting killed through his down shield, I launch my F torp, he eats it on his #1, I slip in front of him and kill him with a few more phasers. After all is told, he is down to, like, one photon and a couple P1s.
So not real conclusive one way or the other. The drone rack cost me a point of power to deal with a drone, and saved a phaser on an internal.
There was some discussion about getting some type VI drones in the rack instead of one or both type IMs, but my feeling is that would be too good against drone opponents.
G-Rack Fed online Sept 4th
Just got an email from Paul Franz:
"I will do this tomorrow for sure."
Let's see some good pre-Council playtesting!
-DC
G-Rack Fed is Available
Just got an email from Paul Franz. He reports the G-Rack Fed is now available in the latest update to the client.
Please update your clients and start playtesting this thing. We've got four weeks until the big tournament at Council of Five Nations.
www.swa-gaming.org/SFBatCouncil
I strongly encourage all of you to post your game results and observations in the discussion thread that accompanies this one here.
Have fun!
-DC
G-Rack Fed at Council
So Paul won with the G-Rack Fed at Council, but whether or not the G-Rack actually helped him win remains to be seen. I mean, it certainly didn't hurt at all, but reports are that in most games, it wasn't real significant one way or the other.
In my semi-final game (his Fed vs my Gorn), the G-rack was mostly irrelevant--he launched a drone at range 2. I shot the drone down with a couple phasers that were about to get blown off my ship by the photon volley. I could have fired those phasers at his ship instead, but that would have been, like, 6 damage on a completely irrelevant shield.
In the final (his Fed vs Brook's Gorn), the G-rack was completely irrelevant, as the Fed got a R4 shot on T1 and jackpotted. No drone was even launched.
Reports are that it was helpful, at least as a threat, in a game vs Brian Evans's Hydran, as it compromised his ability to deploy his fighters, but the Fed has an advantage over the Hydran anyway. Apparently very helpful vs Captain Ron's Shark's drones. Saved the Fed a few internal's vs Moose's Klingon by sucking up a phaser or two before getting shot off.
I'm sure Paul will have plenty of input, but he is currently flying all over the NE or something. So I figured I'd pitch in.
Fed TCC w/ G-Rack download.
Where can I find the SSD for the Fed TCC w/G-Rack for downloading and printing?
Eric, just FYI.
I am not sure the g rack fed exists anywhere but in the sfbol library. And I am pretty sure we are going for an ADB sanctioned event at Council this year. If so, the G-rack Fed will not be used.
Thanks. i just wanted to
Thanks. i just wanted to check it out. I'll do it on SFBOL!
Keep it old-school
Suggestion:
There is a good spot over to the right of the Impulse engines on the Fed TCC.
Take a pen, draw a box, and write "Drone" over the box.
That's pretty-much what we did at Council.
-DC