I don't think I'm alone in this, but I have yet to buy the the latest SFB modules for a couple of reasons:
1) R9 was great because it had several brand new ship designs that weren't simply variants of stuff we have seen before. It actually had new hull forms. The only new hull forms in these 3 modules are the Heavy War Cruiser and Fast War Cruiser. I realize that there are limits in what can be done, but the Heavy Destroyer and Deckhouse Destroyer in CL33 were great! I'm tired of spending $25 dollars to buy obvious variants. What I think is ironic is that certain useful obvious variants don't get done, but that other junk that will never be used gets in. Original combat designs also can be easily ported to Federation Commander. Bottom line: Originality matters...
2) A lot of the ships had already been published in Captains Log.... SVC, I don't care if they get published online on someones website first! However, I don't like to keep buying the same SSDs over and over again. I understand that all Captains Log ships need to be published in a module at some point, but I would prefer that at least 50%-60% of the SSDs to have not been previously published. I think this problem exists because ADB hasn't been publishing as many modules as of late mostly because of PD, Fed Com, and those other game projects (Fed Admiral, the Starmada system....) As a result they end up with a backlog of stuff to publish from CL.
3) I want digital copies, enough said.... What would be really nice is if you could pick and choose SSDs. For example if you don't play Hydrans then you don't have to buy those ships. Maybe charge $1 or $2 a SSD.
4) I can't find anyone that has them in stock. I tried stores in Denver, Dallas, and Orlando over the course of almost a year. The problem that I'm finding is that stores have lots of Federation Commander stuff that simply isn't moving. I had one store in Denver and one in Orlando tell me that they simply wouldn't buy any more ADB stuff until the existing stuff sells. This, and the disparity between number of monthly posts in the Fed Comm and SFB sections on discuss, really makes me wonder of Fed Com is actually selling. (Yes I know I could order them online but when I actually pull my credit card out to do that I think of 1 and 2 above)
I bought these.
Good stuff, I like X1R the best (long time fan of X-ships). They still need to publish some Hydran x-frigates though.
10 years
Maybe more. Havent bought anything in that time. Except G3A.
X-frigates
I think the idea of X-frigates is silly. Why someone would put such valuable tech in such a vulnerable (and limited) hull is beyond my ken.
Well, I never bought into (or
Well, I never bought into (or liked) the whole "X-tech requires rare handwavium to work" thing. To me they're the next progression of tech. So, yeah, it's the same they went thru in the Y-era when they jumped to "M-Tech" (Middle Years). They built frigates then.
Now if you buy the whole "X-tech requires rare handwavium gas to work" thing, maybe not.
As for the R-modules, yeah, I
As for the R-modules, yeah, I admit, I was a bit disappointed in R12. It was a "catch up" module to "officially publish" a bunch of Captain's Log ships. But it did have some new stuff which I liked, and those ships need to be published in an R-module eventually to be 'official'. I know some wingnuts that refuse to allow Captain's Log ships for play in their groups. Which is silly, but I digress. I don't regret buying R12.
They seem to be publishing less SFB modules, presumably because FedCom is the new cash cow, and it gets most of the love. And the big flap about "You can't hang proposed ships on the web for review, because we got complaints about R12" thing has pretty much completely killed ship proposals for SFB. Kind of how tactics submissions died when they put arcane restrictions on them in order to stop the incessant flood of term papers from MJC.
No handwavium
It's not anything to do with that. It's simply the fact that such ships are too vulnerable to being destroyed, and very expensive to build. During the war, X-tech is scarce simply because it's new.
It's why we don't see Aegis frigates in the US Navy. In fact, since the Aegis destroyers have been deployed, ALL frigates save some of the Perry class have been withdrawn (and some of them were withdrawn and placed in the IRR).
A frigate sized hull simply could not support the necessary platforms. This is a real example, not some made up BS.
And once you get to "X-2", with the fleets being much smaller (so goes the folklore) that you simply won't waste a hull-space in your fleet for an inferior ship, when an X2-DD can handle the mission.
For this, you have to think like an admiral, and not a captain.
comparison with anything in
comparison with anything in Real Life is difficult, and that is because of how the game is designed. ADB based SFB on the WWI game "Jutland" and got a a system that was not open for expanding the abilites of units. A prime example is how X ships with 40 box engines are limited to speed 31:P
This makes it hard to have technological evolution that follow anything in real life. Just imagine X2 with stealth cruisers with photons that hit on 1-5 at range 15... and there is were it would go. Just look at the "zumwalt" class>.<
It doesn't have to
"This makes it hard to have technological evolution that follow anything in real life. Just imagine X2 with stealth cruisers with photons that hit on 1-5 at range 15... and there is were it would go. Just look at the "zumwalt" class>.<"
I wouldn't expect it to be THAT over the top. Far from it.
However, I gave up talking about X2 on the main forum because it seemed some people didn't want them to eb ANY better, and that makes no sense either.
One of the best suggestions I heard was to make the ranges for X2 weapons a little better than standard, or take more damage to destroy. So the total weapon count wouldn't go up compared to X1, but weapons would work a bit better, and be a bit more sturdy. Not over the top, and a logic evolution that matched the story....that X1 was retrofit onto old hulls, but X2 was that same tech installed on hulls designed to use it best
Joe, I am thinking like an
Joe, I am thinking like an Admiral. I just don't agree. I think X-frigates make as much sense as general war frigates make, when transitioning from Y-tech. If they made the jump then, it makes sense to do so now. I don't play F&E, but run (and play in) campaigns. Usually there is either a flexible command system that allows you to pack more "small" ships in, or else there is territory to be covered such that you can't do it all with cruisers.
What DOESN'T make sense is the "handwavium" element being required. If that were the case, then yeah, maybe you DON'T waste "rare, precious handwavium" on a FF.
By the way, not trying to be
By the way, not trying to be argumentative, I have just found frigates useful in fleet combat, depending on the year.
Yes by the late war (Y176+) they are showing their age, and most are being phased out for DWs.
Depends on the FF
Some are great. Kzin for pumping out drones and staying at range, Hydran for defending more important ships, or even for leading a charge and saying to the opponent "take me out at R4 or risk a stack of cheap Ph-G shots".
But for the most part they are useless.
Though given they are cheap, perhaps thats sort of their point. Use them wisely and they are okay sometimes. Otherwise, dont buy them and get a bigger/better unit.
"Handwavium"
Dale,
Any technology that is new is extremely expensive. Economics aren't "handwavium". It's not that you can't do it, it's that it's not cost effective to do it. If I can only afford to make X number of X-phasers, why would I risk them in a vulnerable unit?
Military planners make these types of decisions all the time. It's not handwavium in the least.
"Yes by the late war (Y176+) they are showing their age, and most are being phased out for DWs.
"
Which just illustrates my point even more. Remember, we're talking X2 here, so that's what, Y184-186 or later? So we're talking 10 years later than the time you are talking about. Maybe you retrofit a few during the war, but I could never see them being used more than a couple times.
FF roles and missions
"Some are great. Kzin for pumping out drones and staying at range"
Such a ship doesn't really need X-tech though.
" Hydran for defending more important ships, or even for leading a charge and saying to the opponent "take me out at R4 or risk a stack of cheap Ph-G shots".
"
Well, aren't you really describing a suicide ship? Why would you pack your best stuff in a ship that has less than a 50% chance of surviving?
Dammit, Joe.
There goes my proposal for a D6XJAM X-tech Penal Stasis Mauler.
*innocent whistle*
Joe, By "handwavium", I was
Joe,
By "handwavium", I was referring to the flavor text in (I believe) module X1R that explains that X-ships require certain rare elements (which I referred to as "handwavium") that limit their construction and availability BEYOND just "This is new tech".
Just so you know.
And I was mainly talking about X1 tech. X2 tech, well. There's no clear consensus on what that will be. I know there were development threads for a while, but while a few people had agreed, many more had differing views, and of course none of it's official until ADB signs off on it, is all.
X2 will never happen. Given a
X2 will never happen. Given a logical improvement from non-X to X1 and then to X2 you end up with cruisers that can do anything. Were is the fun in that?
I don't know that that's
I don't know that that's necessarily true. There are paradigms that might make X2 work that don't involve "Every ship is a supership".
I don't know that ADB will approve of these ideas, mind you. ;)
Of course not
"I don't know that ADB will approve of these ideas, mind you. ;)"
Im sure they would have already considered it, so you'd be stealing THEIR ideas.
Superships
"X2 will never happen. Given a logical improvement from non-X to X1 and then to X2 you end up with cruisers that can do anything. Were is the fun in that?
"
I disagree. I think ships can be designed that are:
a) enough of an improvement that someone would build them
b) not ridiculous
I think the issue is that people have to recognize that an X1 cruiser is NOT going to be a match for an X2 cruiser. It can't be. BUT, it doesn't have to be overwhelming. I'd expect that if there were X2-CLs (and I think there should be, because there wouldn't likely be X2-CWs), they'd be roughly equal to X1-CA.
I'd expect there would be no X2-FFs, and X2-DD would be the standard small ships. An X2-DD should probably be on par with an X1-DWX, IMO
It can be done.
X2 may happen some day, but
X2 may happen some day, but not anytime soon I am sure.
I don't expect it to be ships with many more boxes than existing ships but instead improved in other ways.
Couple of points; First, I
Couple of points; First, I don't buy the whole, 'CL SSD's have to be published in a module to be official' thing. If it is in CL then it was officially published by ADB as far as I'm concerned. That is simply a $ thing the other way. Now I don't begrudge ADB making money, but re-publishing ships to be 'official' isn't very cool.
Secondly, since I'm collecting the earlier CL's I have a chance to read a lot of really older ones next to somewhat newer ones. I've seen more than once someone suggest a variant only to hear, "we won't do it because there aren't enough of (DN/CA/D/FF) hulls to go around to justify a variant. And then many CL later...there is the variant or something close. If there aren't enough for one variant, there aren't enough for any variant.
In theory...
Anything in a CL is still playtest material. Though I would love to know how often a ship has been in a CL then later appeared in an R-module but with significant changes to either cost or boxes.
As for products appearing later, this happens all the time. You hear either "not enough hulls" or "we have already considered it" - despite them never saying a word publicly.
Then they come out with an R-module which squeezes an ever increasing number of hulls and variants.
This is why I havent bought anything since R8 or R9. Apart from the fact that with G3 Annexes I can find what I want and then check it out on SFBOL.